Brexit: Theresa May's deal is voted down

Good video. This article is suggesting one of the reasons the Tories are coming down heavy on Maduro is because they want to identify Corbyn with him.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...o-keep-eu-united-in-piling-pressure-on-maduro

 

It might not least to a civil war because we're supine compared to the French, but if there's any chicanery or another referendum, the Tories will be finished for ever. This appalling woman isn't only traitorous, she's also the worst prime minister we've ever had; in fact she has never distinguished herself in all the years she's been in government. What an absolute unholy fiasco when it should simply have been 'in' or 'out'? How low our country has sunk when we're either the laughing stock of the entire world, or the object of its pity.

 

Nobody mentioned 'commonwealth countries' but nice try at negative spin.

 

What? Your hero did precisely that!

Nigel Farage today claimed that Britain could cultivate economic ties within the Commonwealth that would put its life in the EU to shame.

In a scathing asssessment of Britain's time in the EU, Mr Farage praised the fact that Britain could at long last turn to Commonwealth countries, who were growing faster than Europe.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/949628/Brexit-News-Nigel-Farage-Commonwealth-EU-Barnier

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...n-commonwealth-trading-empire-brexit-eu-trade

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...on-why-you-should-vote-to-leave-a7091021.html

Or perhaps you are referring to Nigel Farage as a nobody which is correct - where has he vanished to BTW?

 

I expect he had Australia, the Asian subcontinent, Canada et al than a couple of colonies. DUH!

 

I can also see a fourth strand - to distract attention away from growing domestic problems of Maybot over Brexit with an "overseas adventure", to use the ld Brit empire description. We also see the European neoliberal elite greedily racing to jump on Trump's regime change power grab. There's nothing more likely to concentrate avaricious minds than the opportunity get a share of crooked spoils.

Civilising influences are quickly abandoned when man's lowest instincts are activated...

 

Strange. You mean like the clothes I've recently purchased that were made in India or the Australian wine that I can buy right now?

 

How about telling me exactly what point you're making instead of asking daft questions?

 

How about you telling me what "plenty of markets out there" you were referring to that we don't already trade with?

 

It is sounding like Yvette Cooper's amendment to change the date will be accepted...but she wanted Dec 31st which would definitely give some time but people are thinking this may be too long. A very strange idea of July without elections to the EU Parliament has been suggested.

 

The US is not part of EU and it’s doing quite well.
Canada, Australia, and lots of other countries that are not part of EU manage to be doing well for themselves.
Being in EU is not the only way to live in a western modern country.
You, Brits, need to take alarmism with a grain of salt - it’s incredibly expensive for a large corporation to move its headquarters and the cost might not justify tax savings. Even with produce and alarms about supply chain - if Brits can’t buy the produce it will start to spoil, something that suppliers don’t want to happen. They grow based on historic demand and will continue to do so - they’ll even become political force within EU that advocates a good deal so that they can continue to sell their product.

Just wait, you’ll see things won’t be that bad. Maybe first year or two would be worse than usual, but after that things will get back to normal.

 

All of which are tiny compared to the EU.

It's also not clear how, post-Brexit, trade with these countries will suddenly soar to fill the gap left by any drop in EU trade, given that, at best, the new trade deals will just be the existing EU deals rolled over.

 

True, but then again the US would also have difficulties both in the short, medium and long term if its relationships with its major trading partners were suddenly to change.

It isn't, but then again the other Western countries have major trading partners right on their doorsteps. The US or Canada cannot replace The Netherlands or Spain as a source of fruit and veg for the UK for simple geographic reasons.

Moving headquarters is comparatively simple - which is why so many large companies have already relocated from the UK to the EU in the past 2 1/2 years. Moving manufacturing sites and so forth takes longer and is more expensive which is why Jaguar LandRover is setting up shop in Slovenia so that they have an EU manufacturing base in the event that Brexit is financially disadvantageous, it's why Nissan, Honda and Toyota have allocated new models elsewhere in their global manufacturing portfolio and so on.

You fail to take into account the asymmetry of the situation. EU growers will face a single-digit percentage drop in demand, millions of UK consumers run the risk of having empty shelves.

How will they get "back to normal" ?

At best we end up with a trade deal which is only a little bit worse than the existing relationship with the EU. The government has ruled out a customs union, so any future trade deal is likely to be significantly worse.

 

what would 'back to normal' be, us being the sick man of Europe as we were before we joined the EU? or us being back in? or the end of the Union leaving England and Wales together, Scotland Independent and Ireland United. That is a very likely outcome in maybe 2 years. The economic forecasts I have seen actually see the situation getting worse not better in future years and Scotland losing £14 billion a year which would result in a massive lowering of our standard of living. It is at best a gamble. A gamble which has lost the young the opportunity to move about and work where they want in the EU. There is one advantage. The UK will not be stuck by EU budget rules which will allow Labour to bring in more socialist policies - for instance lending workers the money to buy their business if their boss wants to sell. I'm feeling less that it is going to end in a No Deal today. Ministers are worried about their electorate. They seem to have two competing fears. First they want them to know that they are respecting their vote, the referendum but secondly concern to make sure they are not going to do something, for instance, No Deal which they believe would cause them massive hardship.

 

To be fair, Canada is doing well because we're a country of about 40 millions with a neibourgh market of about 380 millions for our goods and services. The UK could lose all of its near markets or have to pay tarrif that their competitors don't.

 

I would say your position here has been completely vindicated by what happened last night. The UK has apparently now got a deal which will be accepted...except it is known that this 'deal' is one which is not acceptable to the EU...and the Tories are all together playing this farce and setting it up to blame the EU for No Deal. It is beyond ridiculous that this farce is being played out with our future.

 

1. I've been saying since June 23 2016 that there's no chance MPs would let this actually go through. Everyone said that was ridiculous, yet here we are.

2. No deal is Brexit. Everything else is no Brexit.

3. Theresa May is a joke of a PM and should never have replaced Cameron. Though I acknowledge many on the leave side backed her at first, I saw her for the snake she really is from day 1.

4. For everything there is an equal and opposite reaction. If Brexit is trashed it will embolden the right in the UK and on the continent. This will not be the last we've heard of movements for national sovereignty.

5. Any way this goes the EU's authority is already undermined. They will never govern like they once did again. Or they will and it will precipitate exits from Italy, Poland, Hungary, etc.

 

And what of us Aussies.

It's time for the multilateral world order to die a painful, torturous death; for national sovereignty and bilateral free trade to supersede international bureaucracy and "free trade", meaning regulatory cartels.

 

I only meant if it comes to the crunch with the EU - which, from the results of last nights parliamentary activity, that crunch seems to have arrived. What she should do now is not to go grovelling to them yet again, but to call their bluff, and believe me, they'll cave in instantly. If she'd done that two effing years ago, instead of spending them cajoling, and going to and fro with the begging bowl like a supplicant, they'd have caved in then, and we'd have been able to continue trading - both ways, don't forget . . . if their industries fold as we keep being told ours will, they'll have thousands of workers laid off too??? When I think how much of our taxes have ended up in the ECB over all these years - it must be trillions - which might have been given to restore our NHS and kept the hospitals in public ownership rather than giving them away in PFI to greedy chancers, kept open thousands of elderly care homes and mental care facilities, repaired the roads rather than allow them to deteriorate to the point they now they need complete resurfacing, and the ten years and counting of austerity bringing misery to millions, food banks on every street corner, and I could go on . . . I don't want another effing penny of our 'hard-earned taxes' going to the extensive bureaucratic money-eating machine called the EU. and all of this just so other members of the misbegotten project don't get the same idea as us by saying 'We've had enough - **** the lot of you. we're leaving too.' which is going to happen soon anyway - then you'll be glad of those 'tiny' markets outside of the Eurozone. To be honest I used to feel sorry for you and your workforce, but if you really are in that position (which I seriously doubt!) I don't care. You've become so complacent over the years, and are embittered that it's all going to end, all you do is sit there whingeing hour after hour, day after day, when more enterprising bosses are up for the challenge, which is what we're all about . . . or used to be? I'm so ashamed of what my country has come to, and those like yourself haven't done anything to assuage that shame.

NB Apols if the above post is on another thread as well as this one; there have been 4/5 momentary power cuts and now they've stopped, I forgot which thread I was on. Luckily I copied the above post after the second power blip in anticipation of losing it, otherwise I surely would have lost it and in view of its length wouldn't have been a happy bunny

 

Some years ago on another messageboard, I called out a poster with the board name Ctoo, claiming that he's a PR wonk somewhere in Downing Street. Suddenly his pro-government posts stopped. In the trite words famously uttered by May from the Dispatch Box to a beleagured Corbyn soon after she became PM, and in a pathetic attempt to mimic one of the many touche moments for which Thatcher was so brilliant, but failing miserably, I ask you, The Don . . . 'Remind you of anybody?'

Hmmm, The Don is 'late on parade this morning'. Wonder why?

 

Yes, but as keep trying to explain, the situation is asymmetrical. For Germany, it gets more difficult for them to access 9% of their export market. For the UK it becomes more difficult to access nearly 50% of our export market. For Germany it's very inconvenient, for the UK it's far worse.

It really isn't.

A rare point on which we agree - PFI is and was a ridiculously expensive and inefficient way to fund public expenditure - it also had absolutely nothing to do with EU membershiup

As we have to create our own functions to replicate what the EU currently does on our behalf, I think we'll be surprised about how efficient they are.

Tiny markets outside the EU simply cannot take up the slack. As hard as we market to Gabon, they cannot buy as much of our exports as Germany.

I seem to have some sort of setting so my posts autosave, but then again I'm on a laptop so it's only the router that goes down in a power cut.

 

I was driving 300 miles to go and visit my terminally ill father - sorry if that was inconvenient for you.

Weather permitting, I'll be driving back at around 4ish.