I'm (*)(*)(*)(*)ing bored. Therefore I shall lob this grenade and run away: Everyone KNOWS that the .45 is far superior as a pistol or submachinegun round than the 9mm. This is a fact in common knowledge, such that no proof is required. Everyone simply accepts this as fact and anyone who doesn't is a wrong headed fuddy duddy.
Damnit!! The whole point of the thread is to argue about essentially a matter of preference not about things we can agree on!!! I'll try again: .357 sig is the best caliber for a semi automatic pistol in existence.
Depends if it hits the target. The 9mm +p+ approaches 357 Sig power. Some of the new 9mm ammo is really quite potent and even some of the older stuff like the 9BPLE is for practical purposes as good as the 45.
A basic internet search would be sufficient to put such discussions to rest. http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/
Yes and no. This provides a good body of text for reference, and a good study for someone who doesn't want to bother with doing any of their own testing. When I started messing with the subject, 2 pieces of work were in discussion. First was the Marshall/Sanow report. They had contacted a whole bunch of hospitals, and put together a list of current calibers and bullets for those calibers that resulted in one shot stops. This was not to mean that the stop resulted in death. It just stopped the fight. Each caliber/bullet was given a percentage number. No pistol caliber resulted in 100% first shot stops, and .44 Mag. proved less effective than 9mm. This because the bullets used in .44 Mag. that were subject to the report tended to penetrate clear through before they had a chance to expand. The winner in that report was a .35 caliber bullet with muzzle energy of right around 500 ft./lbs. Most commonly, that was a 125 gr. JHP from a 4" .357 Mag. The other thing that influenced me was the debate among competitive shooters about whether 9mm could be loaded to qualify for "major" power, which happened to be 500 ft./lbs energy. Now I recall that the Utah deer hunting proclamation of that year influenced me as well, because they specified 500 ft./lbs. as the minimum required for hunting deer. So I set out to develop a load for my Ruger P-85's that could do this, and succeeded with a load that pushed the 124 gr. Hornady XTP to just over 1,400 fps. I do it a little differently now, but I have no lack of faith in my ammo. The point of my little story here is that for those who are fascinated by developing their own ammunition, the process continues until there is no discussion remaining. I was a little bothered with the Marshall/Sanow findings regarding .44 Mag., so I tried pushing the 180 gr. Gold Dot to 18,00 fps. I don't know what it would do to a bad guy, but I know for sure that if you hit one of those really big cans of peanut butter with one from 25 yards, you're covered in goo. I take that to mean it would work just fine.
the guy I had to shoot with a 9mm testified it was sufficient to stop his nefarious and criminal actions just saying........
I like the higher capacity or ease of concealment, lighter weight, more comfort, and lower recoil of a 9mm. I can also hand a 9mm to my wife while I get my 12ga. at home. Ammo choices make the ballistics argument minimal. That's my preference anyway.
Yeah if you can actually handle shooting a .45. I've seen a couple people who thought "a pistol is a pistol" and ended up french kissing the back end of my Glock .45 lol IMHO the best weapon is the one that you can own and operate effectively and accurately regardless of what caliber it is. A .22 squirrel shooter that you can aim and hit something with is much more effective than a Desert Eagle that blows your shoulder out of socket because you can't handle it even if the bullet is bigger.
He was a (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)! - - - Updated - - - You quit being reasonable!!! People are trying to FEEEEEEEEEL over here
Of course the heavier the projectile, the more stopping power it has. However mag capacity in a .45 is generally less than 9mm. I thing having more ammo is better than having a heavy bullet.
With .45 you've got a decent shot of a one and done. With a 9mm... well...... I'm just going to put this out there, make of it what you will: 50 Cent was shot several times with a 9mm, twice in the face IIRC. He is not only still alive but also a millionaire who has apparently gotten away with sexual assault.. Do you want the criminals you shoot to live to be millionaires who get away with sexual assault? I didn't think so
If you hit someone with a decent aim and a quality JHP from a 9mm, they're done. I'm guessing he was probably hit with target practice ammo. That stuff just passes right through and doesn't leave much of a wound channel. If I was forced to defend myself, I'd also rather have more rounds and lighter recoil quality 9mm JHP. Plus I know my wife can defend herself with one if I go down.
If you'd have shot him with my favorite; .40S&W, he'd not have been able to testify as to it's efficacy.
Even with the .45 people dont just drop dead. Ive seen incidents of criminals being shot multiple times with .45s and still stand. You have to examine why people die of gun shot wounds. The number one cause of death in any GSW is bleeding to death. A larger wound channel, like the .45 would cause, will cause people to bleed to death faster, but it still can take several minutes. To stop someone dead in their tracks you must hit critical areas of the central nervous system such as the brain or spine, and it makes no difference the caliber in this case.
Or you can hit a very vital organ (like the liver or lungs or heart) or simply damage them enough. Which is what makes the .45 JHP better IMO: bigger chunk taken out, more force involved, larger circumference of expansion cavity = more likely to hit one of those juicy targets in the center mass.
A high school friend of mine was shot in the chest with a .45. The bullet bounced off of his sternum and took out most of his liver, but it didn't kill him. He was shot in his office at close range and still had the strength to call the school office to warn everybody. He is still coaching in TX. http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/07/canton.shooting/index.html?_s=PM:US
He's a football coach in Texas during the season: Obviously Jesus protected him so his team could go on winning. 'Murica.
Even vital organ hits don't cause immediate death, they still have to bleed out. Center of mass hits are always the recommended place to hit, not because of vital organs as much as it is the easiest shot placement. Thats why you keep firing to center mass until the threat has stopped.
True, but if you tag someone's liver or lungs they generally aren't able to remain standing much less stab you to death. Granted, some will have the minerals to continue but most will drop like a hot rock. Dat Shock tho, as the youth of today would say.
The number one reasons a threat stops quickly is taking their psychological will to continue. Several shots to the center of mass with just about any caliber can accomplish this.
I've taught her the same basics I learned in Marine corps infantry training, my son as well. As soon as my daughter is old enough we'll have a full fire team Reminds me of that Texas family that defended themselves against a home invasion. He took hits from all 4 family members. - - - Updated - - - He was shooting at the moon!
Sorry lol In that case I'll still take a 9mm over a .45. I like the low recoil of a 9mm and I'm pretty damn deadly accurate with them. Probably because I've practiced shooting them a lot more than any other pistol. I can put a nice tight 5 round shot group wherever I please with one in rapid succession. A .45 just kicks too much for me to aim as accurately. I can hit the target with the .45 but the shot group isn't nearly as tight and it takes me longer to re-aim after each shot.
