Can a centrally planned economy work?

Discussion in 'Economics & Trade' started by ARDY, Sep 8, 2019.

  1. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    i do not understand the point that you are making?

    as far as i am concerned, there is nothing about a centrally planned economy that would inherently result in a higher or lower gini coefficient

    the point that i am trying to explore is whether it is possible that a centrally planned economy might result in a national economy that exceeds a non planned economy? Are we arguing that absence of planning will yield superior results to having a plan? As far as i can tell..... every capitalist corporation establishes a plan.... do they not? Isn't this a vote of confidence from capitalists about the value of having a plan vs having no plan
     
  2. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    If only a centrally planned economy had ever been tried...
     
  3. GChairman

    GChairman Active Member

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    Not to be rude Ardy , but you dont understand how China works

    China is a centrally planned economy yes, the government dictates how things are run on the federal level and local governments handle the local stuff like hours worked and wages.

    When we think of centrally planned we think of the Marxist Leninist system as it was in the USSR and her allies, Mao's China, Cuba, North Korea , Laos, Vietnam Cambodia

    After Mao died they adopted western style of economics hence why they opened up "economic zones"

    The truth is the government communist party controls a lot and once you're affiliated with the communist party you reap the benefits of little to no competition from foreign sources.



    There is only one legal trade union in China , The All-China Federation of Trade Unions (ACFTU)The ACFTU is primarily under the control and direction of the Chinese Communist Party.

    There are no independent unions in China as its seen as a political threat

    China's government spends billions and billions of dollars and the citizens have no say, this is why you have so many high speed rails, big cities with low population among other things.

    We in the western world or even Europe cannot duplicate what the Chinese government has done, that would mean a greater inequality among its people

    All one has to do is visit a Tier one city like Beijing, Shanghai and go to a Tier 4 city like Quanzhou in Fujian province and you can see the difference in the quality of life and freedom

    Or see Urumqi and see how freedoms are a luxury .

    In China you see the wealthy and the poor is really poor , I'm talking third world poor.

    Of course they can implement technologies faster as the government mandates it, they allow foreign companies in and because of no patent laws they can duplicate their technology with impunity

    this is just part of the reason why Trump is being hard on China unlike his predecessor Obama, Bush, Clinton .

    China can fund projects up the ying yang as they dont have a congress to answer to like us , or a parliament in other countries
    the communist party is it, they say ... people do

    Do you want that kind of central planning?
     
  4. Mircea

    Mircea Well-Known Member

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    Centrally planned economies are not an a "superior option" for the reasons stated.

    I never made any such claim. In fact, I never mentioned Trump or Clinton or Obama, because they are not relevant to the discussion on centrally planned economies.

    Why?

    Neither country uses a centrally planned economy. In fact, China abandoned central planning after Mao, because it failed.

    Singapore is not a centrally planned economy, either. At most, Singapore is a hybrid of the Free Market and Command Economic Systems.

    Singapore does heavily regulate labor, land use and its natural resources, but that doesn't make it a planned economy.

    In a planned economy, the government or another body dictates what is to be produced, the quantities that are to be produced, then allocates resources to meet production goals and sets prices of all thing in an attempt to meet production goals it set.
     
  5. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It ok, i might learn something

    Ok

    Perhaps we should broaden our conceptions


    So you are saying the chinese are upset by this?

    I would think that would give them a competitive advantage

    Sneaky clever those chinese

    So, as I understand what you say... the chinese system is out competing us because they are not playing by our rules?
    What ever they are doing, they seem to be winning

    we are just talking here. It is obvious that we will not adopt the chinese system for any number of reasons

    that said, as i see it.... the chinese have a plan for their nation to win. And we have a notion that having a plan is a bad thing.
     
  6. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No I'm not jealous for two reasons;

    One; that would be weird and
    Two, China fakes it GDP...

    New Study Shines Light — Literally — On China's And Russia's Fake GDP Data
    https://www.investors.com/politics/...iterally-on-chinas-and-russias-fake-gdp-data/


    China admits its GDP data is fake
    https://www.afr.com/world/china-admits-its-gdp-data-is-fake-20170119-gtuh42


    Another Chinese city admits 'fake' economic data
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-city-admits-fake-economic-data-idUSKBN1F60I1




     
  7. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No I don't subscribe to Ultra Neocon nor do I watch Fox.... I just posted links to respectable Financial Media outlets confirming China's data is FAKE.
    The Infrastructure frenzy is used to help prop up GDP figures, Party officials are promoted based on their contribution to GDP growth and they do this by A) lying (changing negative figures into positive) and B) expropriating land from villagers to build more ghost cities. This cycle continues to add to China's monstrous and unstoppable debt....

    China is effectively already a Zombie economy.

    If you are wondering about my source,
    China's Great Wall of Debt: Shadow Banks, Ghost Cities, Massive Loans, and the End of the Chinese Miracle
    https://www.amazon.com/Chinas-Great-Wall-Debt-Massive/dp/1328846016?SubscriptionId=AKIAILSHYYTFIVPWUY6Q&tag=duckduckgo-d-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=1328846016
     
  8. GChairman

    GChairman Active Member

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    if one lives outside of Tier 3 cities yes

    by cheating and manipulating currency

    They are not playing by anyone rules, they do have a competitive advantage because their government makes up their own rules , other countries with the except of Putin's Russia cant.

    At the expense of their citizens

    I asked you earlier, do you want to copy the Chinese plan?

    The government telling you how many kids you can have ( they upped it to two kids in 2016 from one child )
    since there is only one official union but working condition have deteriorated as there have been over 10,000 strikes since 2011

    April 2014 when around 40,000 workers at the Yue Yuen shoe factory complex in Dongguan went out on strike for two weeks.

    the problem with striking in China is they have a thing “settling scores after the harvest is gathered” which many of the strikers are sacked by management sometimes the next day to two months later

    The citizens give up a lot of freedoms that we take for granted in the States or around the world in first nation countries

    another thing in many parts of China you need to register to buy certain brands of knives as they have a stabbing problems over there, the american media doesn't cover it as internet, google is blocked there, and Chinese media wont advertise that because they block anything that makes them look bad, but when you're there you can log into Baidu its the equivalent of Google and you can read the local media as they report it

    Ive been going to China for 15 years I see the changes good and bad.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2019
  9. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, as far as you are concerned. History however tells us otherwise.

    Because history is not on your side. When Russia turned UN-Communist, most of the Soviet Federation to the east skedaddled to become a member of the EU. Those countries have since done much better than those that did not become members of the European Union. (And this despite the Great Recession of 2008/10 that the US gifted to the EU.)

    The Ukraine in one for-instance. See them on a map here:
    [​IMG]
    Most of those countries on the northern border with the EU did become members. With the exception of the Ukraine, Moldova and Belarus. Even that tiny bit above in the east that only the Russians called "Russia". (Because it was a key naval base.)

    Russia today is still the backward country it always has been. No longer under Communist control, but that of a plutocracy led by pretty-boy Putin. Whose daughter bought her escape route to France by means of a very expensive vineyard in Bordeaux ... which is why Putin kisses Macron's ass every time he can.

    Putin knows well that sooner or later he must leave Russia - he's made a LOT OF MONEY & ENEMIES. Without an Army to command, he and his family would no longer be safe there. (His ex-wife is chummy with the Russian Orthodox religious hierarchy so she's doing fine.)

    I figure that if Russia explodes - as a it has a want of doing since 1917 when it toppled the Tzar - there's a good chance that Putin will high-tail it out for his own good taking his billions with him (if they are not already "outside").

    And I'll bet he skedaddles to Bordeaux to end his days. There is his daughter's vineyard (that I'll bet he helped her buy) and some damn fine wine. He could do worse ...

    PS: In fact, smart-money in Russia started leaving long ago and many have bought property in Cyprus.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2019
  10. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Money is not everything. Yes, quite right. But Income IS!

    Get the difference: Money is something you accumulate. Income is the money you spend. They are most often not at all the same - for most of us Income is all we have along with a mortgage to pay off inevitably. Which them becomes our Net Wealth or better known as Net Worth.

    The difference between Money and Income is key to anyone's existence on earth. Most people make do with Income. Those lucky enough go on to accumulate Money, which they inevitably leave to their family that never worked a day to earn it ...
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2019
  11. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But about fifty percent of economic growth in China may be White Elephants.........
    their construction industry is a huge percentage of their economy......

    https://pro.moneymappress.com/p/MMR...1525314934-571105120.1525314934&h=true&h=true
     
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  12. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  13. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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