Can an a Christian God exist?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Etbauer, May 26, 2017.

  1. Etbauer

    Etbauer Banned

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    If the universe is ruled by an all-powerful divine being, then there is no need for thermodynamics, or anything at all. The reality of why it exists is a totally different question, that's just physics, and not all that mysterious, but if there is an all powerful anything, then everything exists only at the whim of that being including all laws of physics and space-time
     
  2. sdelsolray

    sdelsolray Well-Known Member

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    Says you. I suggest you speak directly with the "all-powerful divine being" of your choosing to verify, or falsify, your claim.

    See above.
     
  3. Etbauer

    Etbauer Banned

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    lol, well that's impossible, but no one needs to, it's just logic. How could anything all powerful need something, or be limited by anything unless there were a higher power limiting it?
     
  4. Adorno

    Adorno Active Member

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    Well here is the most pressing form of the argument that I have seen (William Rowe's Evidential Argument Against the Existence of God):

    Evidence against the existence of the traditional Christian god:

    1) Extraneous suffering exists (suffering not necessary for some greater good or the prevention of some greater evil).
    2) An all powerful, all loving, all knowing God would not allow extraneous suffering to exist.
    3) Conclusion: An all powerful, all loving, all knowing God doesn't exist.

    Evidence for the truth of premise 1: A deer is badly burned in a forest fire and survives for three days in excruciating pain before dying. No human being ever discovers the deer. This type of suffering occurs daily in the animal kingdom. The deer's suffering neither contributes to some greater good or prevents some greater evil. It is an example of the existence of extraneous suffering.

    Evidence for the truth of premise 2: Definitional. To deny this would be to deny God's benevolence or omnipotence, hence it would be to deny God's perfection.

    Conclusion: The conclusion follows necessarily from the premises and each premise is true
     
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  5. sdelsolray

    sdelsolray Well-Known Member

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    It could need it if, for example, it wanted it. Or ir could need it, for example, if it chose a certain design that required it. Perhaps you can come up with other examples.
     
  6. Etbauer

    Etbauer Banned

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    Well, the most important example is that an omnipotent being could create a utopia. So if there were such a being, the fact that there is suffering means that it must either be evil or not exist
     
  7. sdelsolray

    sdelsolray Well-Known Member

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    You've changed the topic we were discussing to the Problem of Evil/Suffering, which is fine as that was the theme of your OP. Yes, it is a reasonable conclusion that a multi-omni sky fairy (including omni-benevolence) cannot exist as such with evil and suffering existing at the same time. Theist apologetics to the contrary are incredibly weak, shallow and desperate.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2017
  8. Etbauer

    Etbauer Banned

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    I saw them as related, but ok, to follow on, why would an ominpotent being want? Honestly why would it decide? Why would it even exist with no pressure, no desire no challenge, in fact nothing that it didn't want would exist, but it wouldn't want anything because it has no need for desires, pleasure would only be a concept it would have to make up, but if it makes pleasure, why not make even more pleasure etc etc... the paradoxes pile up.

    as for the apologetics, I can't really say that that's the case, and it doesn't seem reasonable to me, but that would be getting very far off topic.
     
  9. sdelsolray

    sdelsolray Well-Known Member

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    If these omni-whatever deities are simply human constructs and inventions, then the human inventors could be the source of any anthropomorphic traits. Indeed, the actual evidence supports this.
     
  10. TrackerSam

    TrackerSam Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "God is not He who is, but That which is. God is just the sum of all the substances of the universe. God is the only substance in the universe, and everything is a part of God. “Whatever is, is in God, and nothing can be or be conceived without God”.
    From the philosopher Spinoza.

    The Biblical version of God was written by men seeking wealth and power IMO.
    In my studies on the subject, He is more correctly referred to as The Creator or The One, but never God.
     
  11. Etbauer

    Etbauer Banned

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    So again, then god is evil? Does it have consciousness? Why does it do anything? Are there limits on its power? If so, why?
     
  12. TrackerSam

    TrackerSam Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Because spirits exist. I've seen 2 and they were both fully materialized. Not that I'm unique or crazy, the eyewitness accounts go back to the beginning of man. The soul exsists and lives forever. Religion is a constuct of man but knowing it's a construct does not disprove the Creator.
    The Creator doesn't desire worship, only a person would, nor is your belief required.
    It would be great to have a conversation about the after life without dragging religion into it. As we've seen, when that happens, people start quoting the Bible or some other religious text which contain insurmountable contradictions.There is no religious text on earth that was written by the Creator.
     
  13. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think the question could be better stated - "Does the Christian God Make Sense"

    The OT presents a rather nasty picture of God... A flip flopping, irrational, xenophobic, genocidal God with the most petty and nasty of human characteristics and emotions.

    For example: God makes a law - "Children are not to be killed for the sins of their parents" Great rule - this rule predated Moses by many centuries and is part of the rule of law today.

    God then turns around and orders the Israelite's to kill children and babies on account of the sins of their parents.

    This picture of God simply does not pass the "giggle test". This God is supposely all powerful all knowing and has existed forever would act in such an irrational manner. Why would God care if his creations loved him. How needy is that. "I am a Jealous God" ... really ... and exactly who are you jealous of and why ?

    If God wanted all humans to do what he wants - then why did God create humans that do otherwise. ummmmm ... and who is to blame ? Satan .... an entity also created by God ? Why did God create a being that would cause humans to go against God if God did not want this. This just gets so stupid in such a hurry.

    The God of Genesis is upset with his creation:
    So God sees that every inclination of his creation was "only evil all the time". OK then.. quite a bleak picture. Clearly a failed experiment.

    This is such a bad experiment that God regrets that he had made these good for nothing humans. One would think that an all powerful God would not have done such a pathetic job. Regardless - God recognizes his mistake which is the first step towards correction. Good for God !! - Only when one recognizes one's mistakes/flaws can one correct them.

    God then decides to erase his mistake. ... probably not a bad idea - don't want the other Gods to see the big mistake that God made.

    Then however, God finds a human who is not so bad after all. (another mistake as previously he claimed all humans were all evil all of the time). He then kills everyone else but leaves Noah and family alive.

    Frick and Frack - another mistake ?? Come on God - does God not realize that the offspring of Noah will be just as bad as the "only evil all the time" humans he regretted creating in the first place ? Very disappointing and massive "giggle test" fail but, lets take things at face value for the moment.

    Clearly - the Christian God is "fallible" but, good on God for owning up to his mistake. This contradicts the all knowing part of the belief but let us ignore that for the moment. The one thing that God makes clear is that creation of humans was a failed effort - a failure by God's own admission.

    Now .. as you can see there is hope for this God - the ability to admit failure. Now if God can just get rid of some of the other aforementioned nasty traits, irrational illogical behavior, flop flopping, xenophobia, genocide, Jealousy ... and so on - we may be able to let him out of rehab.

    Wonder o wonder ! After a few thousand years of rehab .... God is a changed deity and he sends son Jesus to tell humans of his rehabilitation !!

    God is now reformed. Xenophobic Genocide has been replaced with “Love neighbor as self” and “Turn the other Cheek” and forgiveness.

    God is no longer jealous and vengeful and judgmental. Instead of “Go out and kill everyone in a town if a few in that town are worshiping other Gods” … “Stone the adulterous Biach” … God is now trumpeting “Judge not” and “Let ye who is without sin cast the first stone

    I find it strange that we do not have a civic holiday celebrating the day when God came out of rehab.

    Rather than ask if the Christian God exists - perhaps a better question might be whether or not this God is going to relapse and go back to his old ways. I mean really now - it is not like this God does not have a history of mistakes and not learning from those mistakes.
     
  14. Etbauer

    Etbauer Banned

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    Very off topic here, but I feel the need to point out that it has been shown over and over that eyewitness accounts, and even ones own memory are all very very unreliable. You can't use any of that for evidence of anything.
     
  15. Etbauer

    Etbauer Banned

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    I think I'm really just trying to vet through any arguments that our world is compatible with the existence of an omnipotent and all-good being. The argument for the existence of an evil god I think are a different conversation and is probably a more interesting discussion.
     
  16. TrackerSam

    TrackerSam Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No. Only some men are evil of their own free will.
    Of course.
    I don't know what his motives are, I can only speculate that to be the only entity in existence would be the meaning of the word lonely.
    Plus if you never knew sadness could you feel happiness, fear/safety, etc? Maybe we're his surrogates.
     
  17. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Part of the point of my post was that the picture of God given in Christianity makes no sense.

    Even if this God is evil - OK .. but this does not make this God some irrational, illogical bumbling flip flopper who continues to repreat the same mistakes.

    If this God was consistently evil - this is plausible. Evil one day and Good the next ... making a rule one day and violating that rule the next ... making mistakes - recognizing the mistake - and then repeating that mistake ... just does not make any sense.

    This would be more an argument for lack of sanity which kind of goes against the all knowing diatribe.
     
  18. Etbauer

    Etbauer Banned

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    Why does evil exist at all?
    Why would it be lonely? Many animals don't get lonely, so why does a god have to feel loneliness? and if it did, why not just make itself not lonely anymore? There are many other options too.


    I probably couldn't but that's my nature. Through enough drugs though you can feel euphoria forever, its just that nature holds us back from being able to rely on that. A god wouldn't be held back by that. An unrestrained god could just make us always happy. According to the bible, he even tried (it also doesn't make sense that a perfect being would fail in this task, or not know the results already.
     
  19. Etbauer

    Etbauer Banned

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    Agreed, but I'd like to see if I'm missing anything.

    I'm actually not even looking at the god of the bible, just the christian perception of a god, again the cliche of an all good all powerful god.

    An evil god could just be a trickster, kid pulling wings off of a fly kind of thing which still is nonsensical.
     
  20. TrackerSam

    TrackerSam Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think what you're really looking for is a political debate, not a conversation about God, The Creator, The One or the Maker, etc.
    Calling Him God diminishes his true nature, because it can denote someone sitting on a throne whose commands must be obeyed. It's not like that and He's not a man or a woman.
     
  21. TrackerSam

    TrackerSam Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Animals do get lonely and He did make himself not lonely anymore. Doesn't matter how many options there are - He chose this option.

    Just make you happy all the time? What you want is a mommie. If you want to play in his league you have to work for it.
     
  22. Etbauer

    Etbauer Banned

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    No, not unless I'm really missing something. It's 100% irrelevant what you call it. The point is the christian idea of a god or whatever you want to call it (a perfectly good all powerful being) is logically incompatible with the world we live in.
     
  23. Etbauer

    Etbauer Banned

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    Some don't. Why invent loneliness just to suffer it?

    Right, and this option included evil, which means he (or it or whatever) has to be as evil as the sum of all evil it created.

    That's true. Why is that true? Why is there any suffering or unpleasantness at all? Why is it even a concept? The creator would have to be evil. But why be evil? There is no motivation, no reason for an all powerful being to be evil, any more than there is one to be good. It's impossible for it to be all good, but it doesn't make sense either way.
     
  24. TrackerSam

    TrackerSam Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Whatever our lives are, they weren't assigned to us, we chose them. The only evil thing on Earth are people who choose to do evil. Besides man, there is no evil, therefore the creator is not evil.
    Spoiled brats who are given everything rarely play well with others. If you were given everything, you'd never enjoy accomplishments.
     
  25. Etbauer

    Etbauer Banned

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    So, that doesn't explain why evil exists at all. If a god created our existence, it had to create evil, otherwise it wouldn't exist.

    And, that's not entirely true, we were all made humans. Humans were made with emotions, and desires, and needs. And the only reason spoiled brats react that way to having things given to them is because that is human nature, why were humans made that way? Why couldn't they have been made mature without needing to suffer?
     

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