Can atheism coexist with religion?

Agnosticism is the logical POV since it knows there is no way to prove or disprove anything outside the natural Universe.

Disagreed on the mismash of "agnostic atheist" just like I disagree with "football bat".

 

I have seen only a few atheists on forums that are very, very angeru and seek to eliminate religion with violence. Where does this "most" nonsense come from?

 

Atheism appears to be a reactionary position, and such positions seem to always be reactionary. It arose in part, or even primarily as a reaction against religion. By a people who claim with great certainty that god does not exist, and anyone who believes it does, is a dunce. And yet, the fact that atheists claim certainty, when certainty cannot be honestly be had, makes them just as much a dunce as the people they speak down to.

The most intellectually honest position is to be a thoughtful agnostic. These people are honest and smart enough to understand the problem with claiming certainty. And they are able to see that indeed, they do not know the answer, and the nature of the question may mean there will never be a way to know with any certainty. And to claim certainty is illogical. For you are claiming that your opinion is the Truth.

 

Well said. For one would have to remove himself from the universe, stand outside it, and then only with such a point of view could this age old question be answered with any degree of certainty.

Look, having one foot in the grave and not at all happy with dying, I would love to know with certainty whether there is a god or not, and whether consciousness is fundamental, the foundation of reality. But this is one of the things man is not in a position to know with certainty, given what is actually involved in that "knowing". And for a person to claim he knows god exists, or to claim he knows that some god does not exist is just nothing more than a lie based upon what we want reality to be. In truth no one knows, and cannot know, and this drove me kicking and screaming into agnosticism. Logic drove me there, and if you allow her to live in your life, she can be a very harsh mistress. And some of us cannot handle that harshness, and so we deceive ourselves into believing that we can actually "know". You cannot, so face the fact, and do as you will. And yet many of us refuse to do it. Like trying to drag a kid away from his bag of candy.

 

Since everyone is BORN an atheist it is religion that must be INDOCTRINATED.

So REJECTING indoctrination is NOT reactionary but rather a NORMAL and RATIONAL approach by those who are capable of thinking clearly about what religion demands and imposes.

 

I HAVE noted multiple threads questioning the Bible but very few about God. I have also noted a very many threads questioning Atheism. Interestingly when Atheism is questioned there are actual answers to query and when the Bible is questioned people tend to get upset and derail the thread. Why do you think this happens?

 

I see...so it would seem YOU know what I believe better than I do. When even a personal statement of belief gets dismissed in preference of your pre conceived opinion, discussion is pointless....Have A Nice Day

 

I would say everyone is born into the more honest position of not knowing. And from this not knowing, the conditioning comes in, with the atheists trying to condition towards their opinion and the theist trying to condition towards their opinion. Yet if the intellect, logic, reason, rationality enters into the equation, you get agnostics to pop out, which is arrived at by an astute intellect understanding what can be known and what cannot be known. So, the very young human knows very little, and what he will come to know is taught, conditioned into his consciousness. The truly intelligent will of course question all conditioning, and then understand what conditioning is. This kind of mind will have little problem in seeing what can actually be known with certainty and what cannot be known with certainty. But this does take a particular quality of mind, and it seems that all of us do not have such a mind. Those that do not will become atheists and theists.

We have a pretty good idea of what motivated the rise of atheism. I think it is in literature in regards to the scientific revolution. And even until this very day we can see atheism arising in some people as a reaction to religion. I have even experienced such a thing in my own life, early on. So it is fairly common, and it is a reaction. I think this is well documented in the history of science and atheism. And there is more than just one factor involved, as well. And some of it involves this idea, this false idea, that man can actually KNOW with certainty, the answer to a very old question. He cannot, so accept that fact. For unless you do, it will only promote intellectual arrogance, and conflict between the two groups. Kinda like two old bald men fighting over a damned comb! And that is what this theist/atheist contention is. Neither of the bald men can discern that they have no hair or need or a comb. And yet they fight!

 

Atheism predates Christianity and unless you are convinced that there was "literature in regards to a scientific revolution" around 500 BC you are just making that up.

All religions are superstitions and ancient Greeks exposed those fallacious beliefs in much the same manner that atheists debunk modern religious dogma.

Religious superstitions arose from a LACK of KNOWLEDGE of the world around us.

Science is the process of UNDERSTANDING the world around us.

That science threatens religions causes theists to attack atheists because they cannot refute the science.

It is bald theists who believe that they have a "magic comb" for their imaginary head of hair. It was scientists who actually studied the problem and came up with Rogaine instead.

For some strange reason bald theists still fight with their own image in the mirror.

 

From people who are quick to dismiss others in pursuit of pushing their agenda.

 

Nice twist on words. Okay, so, according to your comment, all atheists are ignorant and people must learn to have faith. Awesome!

 

Not at all, but when someone starts talking about sports and says they have a really cool football bat, it piques my curiosity. Have nice day!

 

I am not objecting to the idea that atheism predated christianity, and yet it is a fact that across time all cultures and all humans had some form of religious believe in the gods. I think you are trying intentionally to muddy up the waters here. And given I have actually read some books on the history of science, I know very well that this question of atheism in more modern history is found in that history. Quite the controversy in the time of Charles Darwin on this issue. Perhaps a little reading for you is in order?

Religion is indeed a supersitition for we do not have the means to actually know with certainty if a god or gods exist. By gods, I mean a force outside of this universe, independent of it. But likewise the belief that no gods exist, and it is impossible for gods to exist, is also just as much a superstition as what you accuse the theists of indulging in. Why you cannot see that is the problem.

For you cannot say with certainty that atheism is true, no more than a theist can say with certainty that theism is true. But you seem to have a huge problem in accepting this fact. You are indulging in superstition. All that we can really say is what the position of the agnotic is. That we do not know, and there is no way to have certainty, unless you can remove yourself from this universe and get an outside view, apart from it. Until then, you can conjecture, the theists can conjecture, but you must understand what you are doing in reality. And you don't.

 

Good post.

One analogy of religion is that it is akin to martial arts. The purpose of martial arts is self-defense along with self-discipline. There are many forms of martial arts. If one doesn't learn to defend themselves then they have failed to achieve the main goal of the art. If all they do is run around bragging about how theirs is the best martial art, then they have failed to understand the main purpose of the martial art. Religion is similar; its main goal is spiritual enlightenment. There are many paths to the mountain top. Those who run around bragging that theirs is the one and only "true faith" have missed the entire point of the religion.

 

Not sure what your point is but - correct, belief in evil does not require belief in God.

 

Yep, humans will cling and defend their personal beliefs, and even fight one another over them. In the affairs of men, sometimes they will live by logic, rationality and reason, but it is very rare for us to do that consistently. lol Our beliefs interfere and many times will trump these things. Oh, the power of human nature, outside of rationality, logic and reason. And yet we seem to ignore this most powerful force of human nature, which took perhaps a million years to develop. lol I don't think it is going away anytime soon, to the point that our lives are governed by logic, rationality and reason. We have yet to evolve psychologically in this area, and perhaps may never do it.

 

The only water muddying here is coming from modern day theists that are THREATENED by science and are taking out their frustrations on atheists.

Did you know that Darwin became an atheist because he could not reconcile the false image of the Christian god with the suffering that his daughter endured prior to her demise? That is an example of a rational man coming to a logical conclusion about the fallacies of religion.

That you erroneously conflate religious superstition with atheism indicates that you don't even know what atheism is all about or even that there are many kinds of atheists and no one speaks for atheism in the same manner that religious leaders speak for their religions.

Then there is your bogus "appeal to authority" fallacy that always comes up short. Why don't you worship Russel's Teapot because you would need to "remove yourself from the universe" in order to be able to say for certain that it does not exist.

The reason I don't need to obey your theist doctrine rules about an "outside view" is because YOU need to PROVE that an "outside view" exists in the first place.

Like most other atheists if you can provide definitive irrefutable evidence of the god of your superstitions I will be more than willing to admit to being wrong.

However not a single theist has ever met that challenge and given the trend towards a more rational non-affiliated population the odds of that happening are dwindling.

 

Agreed, but IMHO, only the least enlightened of them will do so. Of course, the smart but ambitious types will use that as a tool to embark on wars of conquest to attain greater power and resources.

Agreed on our best force of human nature. The good news is we actually are getting better. While we still have wars, less people are dying in them. The world, despite all the doom and gloom of news, is actually getting better. Thus, while our psychological development has lots of room for growth, as a species, we are getting better.

 

Am I the only who who sees the problem here?

 

Based on your other posts, I have little doubt you've only seen exactly what you described and that you honestly believe you've never seen atheists mocking, ridiculing or otherwise denigrating theists.

As stated previously, I readily agree some extreme theists have attacked atheists. See the difference here? You disclaim there are extreme atheists attacking theists, but I seem the extremes of both sides doing it.

 

Yes, I agree that humanity from the big picture view is getting better. We have had a very chaotic and violent history as a species. And the irony is, religion has both enabled that history as well as fought against it. Although it has enabled it historically more than fighting against it. lol Religion, like it or not, has been the primary conduit for morality, the teaching of it, unless you can point to atheistic organizations in force throughout the ages that served as conduits for moral behavior.

 

Without Religion to model itself after, Mao and Stalin's regimes would not have existed.

And you're forgetting all the underlying history here. Christians invaded and slew how many pagans and heathens? How many muslims? How many Christians, pagans and heathens were slain by Muslims?

Everyone is an atheist to someone else. Atheists are the most vilified people in the history of mankind.

 

To the OP... can atheism exist with religion? Sure, but atheism must face reality, in that their anti god beliefs can have no certainty. So stop declaring it. And vice versa.

Dropping the emotional baggage involved in atheism and theism is a start.

 

I think you underestimate mankind's intelligence and, sometimes, low level of depravity.

Not at all. Christians, especially the Catholic Spanish Inquisition, can be downright "evil". Do you think Muslims are any less barbaric than Christians? Do you think religion "made" them brutal or that people just used religion as an excuse to start wars of conquest?

Nice mincing of words. Hard pass.

 

Society did not NEED religion in order to adopt morality.

That is just another religious fallacy that has no basis in reality.