Can I not believe in God and NOT be an atheist?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Patricio Da Silva, May 1, 2020.

  1. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It sounds to me like your belief is somewhere in-between basic Buddhism, Buddhist Atheism, and a little bit of "New Age Spirituality" thrown in.
     
  2. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Home brew, with a dash of Taoism, basically.
     
  3. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Not really, because an agnostic believes that human reason is incapable of providing sufficient rational grounds to justify either the belief that God exists or the belief that God does not exist, (source google) and that would not be me, on the other hand, I would qualify that as 'the mystery of life is unknowable' and some agnostics would accept that way of looking at it, however, unlike agnosticism, I reject the concept of God (though some say 'god' is within us, and that viewpoint I accept, which is more eastern religion-ish), altogether, whereas an agnostic would say whether or not God is exists is unknowable, whereas I say the riddle of life is unknowable, and the distinction is important.

    If, by 'higher power', you mean a personal God that oversees, creates, etc, mankind, then no. I do believe in aliens, and they are a higher power, of sorts, in the sense that, what we are to animals they are to us. I do believe in 'nirvana', 'samadhi', enlightenment, etc, but none of these solve the ultimate riddle of life.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2020
  4. The Amazing Sam's Ego

    The Amazing Sam's Ego Banned at Members Request

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    I dont agree with Taoism because its pantheism. Pantheism denies that there is a Creator and a Savior. It creates a god in our image.
    https://reasonsforjesus.com/the-difference-between-god-source-are-they-the-same-thing/
     

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  5. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "Can I not believe in God and NOT be an atheist?"

    There are theist religions
    and there are atheist religions

    be like saying, can I believe in a God and not be a theist?
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2020
  6. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    My favorite book is the Gospel of John. If I read Moby Dick by Herman Melville and there were things supernaturally revealed to me there, I would be looking up old Herman. However, the Book of John reveals something new to me every time I study it's pages. I know people who call them selves Christian and have no idea what the Book of John says, I don't see how that can be. The Book is just filled with miracles. I'm not JUST talking about the miracles performed by Jesus. I'm talking about the wisdom and revelation it reveals........to much depth to be written by mortal man without Godly inspiration.
     
  7. The Amazing Sam's Ego

    The Amazing Sam's Ego Banned at Members Request

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    I dont agree with nirvana because it doesnt have a complete view of what sin is. Its viewpoint on whats right and wrong is more based on worldly wisdom than God's wisdom. Everyone knows that we shouldnt obsess over things, the Buddhist idea of desire can be unhealthy doesn't mean that its true. Having details of the truth doesnt make something true. https://www.gotquestions.org/Nirvana-in-Buddhism.html

    Jesus is the answer to life. The Buddhist idea of who Jesus was is similar to santa claus , who is a replacement of God, or the islamic view of Jesus as a prophet, or the Jewish idea of the Messiah as a political figure and not as God the Creator and the Savior-people cant deny Jesus, but they dont want to believe in a Creator and a Savior, so they present a different viewpoint of who He was, to fit their lifestyle. Everyone has the same desire to seek and know God more and more and make God a part of their life, but some people suppress it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2020
  8. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    the constant in eastern philosophy, is the concept of the flowering of consciousness. The Christian equivalent might be referred to has 'going to heaven' but the imagery that conjures up has nothing to do with eastern philosophy. I'm not a buddhist, and you must understand, these definitions are not rigid, but 'nirvana' 'samadhi' 'enlightenment' are just words for the same thing, and they are no more rigid or fixed in their definition than how a flower in the forest unfolds, it's an organic process, and there is nothing fixed or rigid about it. It happens when it happens, and Buddha, and others, teach us that we can speed up the process by right living, right conduct, and meditation. Christianity is a belief system. It has book, it has tenets, there are sins, and things you can, and cannot do, etc. I have no 'book' no church, no tenets, nothing, really. My 'religion', though that is the wrong word, is a 'consciousness awareness increasing' system. I don't do good because someone will punish me, I do good because it's my nature. I'm not concerned with God, believing this or that, doing ceremonies, going to church and all the trappings of religion which, in my view, though fine for those who need such things, I find no personal value in them.

    Nirvana is a personal achievement, it is not a thing that 'conceptualizes'.

    This idea if killing desire is wrong. Desire is transformed into higher consciousness, it's NEVER suppressed, held down, squashed, etc.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2020
  9. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Hmm, that is interesting. Do you believe aliens have already visited earth during the time of human civilization?

    That would be interesting if you believed that, but did not believe that God exists.
     
  10. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What a load of BS. These are just excuses. What's the practical difference between the two?

    It seems from a materialist perspective, there is no difference.

    And it's mainly the objective materialist perspective which atheists use to deny reason for existence of a God.
     
  11. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Meditation is the opposite if materialism, it's all about spiritual awakening, and we use the energy of desire and transform it to lift us to higher states of consciousness and eventually achieve enlightenment. but we never try and suppress it. If you kill desire you are essentially dead. This is not to say one gives into egregious temptations. So, if one has criminal desires, I'd suggest sublimation. For example, if one has desires to cut people up, I suggest to get a job as a butcher, to sublimate those desires. No one is saying be irresponsible or criminal by 'not suppressing desires'.

    You don't have to accept it, that's okay, but that is one of the objectives of eastern philosophical meditation concept. There is a type of yoga meditation, Tantra (Tantric Yoga), which goes into this type of approach.

    If you believe in God, fine, but it's not part of meditation, though some meditate on God, so that's fine, if that's how they choose to express their spirituality. Do whatever you want, there is no right nor wrong spiritual path, as long as it is not done to harm others.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2020
  12. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    I do. I think of earth is like the Alien's garden. they know we are killing the planet, and they are very concerned about it. Read books by Dr. David Jacobs, Budd Hopkins and Dr. John Mack, Jim Sparks, Yvonne Smith.

    To clarify a point, I do not believe in a personal god, but I believe life has a spiritual basis, I do believe that all living things have a soul ( which is the essence of 'you' ) that life flows from a spiritual source, but that source is not an 'intelligent designer', it's more of a force, like other forces, the only difference being that all other forces, including the human soul, flows from it, and all that flows from it is randomity, or more precisely, ordered chaos ( such is the universe). If 'god' is a thing, then it's everything ( pantheism ).
     
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  13. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think it's very interesting (and not just a little bit ironic) that you believe in the existence of aliens knowing about earth, yet you believe the existence of a God is too incredulous to be possible.

    I knew one atheist who ridiculed people for believing a God could exist, yet he was a person who believed in Astrology being able to make predictions about a person's future, and several other kind of whacky borderline crazy stuff I don't have time to go into here. A very educated man too.

    I think humanity has an innate tendency to be very hypocritical and unconsciously hold lots of double standards.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2020
  14. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    How could anyone argue that Judas wasn't a hero? Without him Jesus wouldn't have been put on the cross, there would be no sacrifice, and your sin wouldn't be whiped clean, right?
     
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  15. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    So its one step better than Christianity, Judaism and Islam.

    No, it does not. Taoism is an atheist religion. It believes in spiritual force, not Gods. It is more like Jedi than Christian.
     
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  16. Buri

    Buri Well-Known Member

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    I just realized someone quoted ken ham as a voice for science, which is like quoting Seuss for a cookbook for breakfasts.
     
  17. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Close your eyes and imagine a pink elephant.

    That which sees it is You.

    The soul and you are one and the same. It is you, you are the center of your universe, you are the soul which inhabits the form ( you physical body)

    IT does not exist (i.,e 'you' do not exist) in time and space, it is beyond the reach of material science.

    Either you sense it and accept it thus, or you are a materialist and reject it on materialist principles.
     
  18. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    You cannot conflate belief in aliens with astrology, no more than you can conflate the fact that I have neighbors with astrology.

    There is no difference. The only difference is distance.

    My belief in aliens is the result of the empirical evidence provided in the books by Dr. David Jacobs, Dr. John Mack, Budd Hopkins, Jim Sparks, and Yvonne Smith.

    Unlike your friend, I do not ridicule anyone's beliefs. Just as a human needs clothing and shelter for comfort from the rigors and brutality of the elements, humans need their beliefs to comfort their souls from the emotional and psychological rigors and brutality of life. Through meditation, the higher levels of awareness one achieves on the journey to enlightenment, the less one needs of such things, i.e., beliefs fall away as dead leaves fall away from a tree, just like that. It's a natural and organic process, and it is happening to each of us whether we know it or not, over a process of millions of life times. Meditation is a gift from the great mystics (Guatama Siddartha, Lao Tzu, Ramana Maharshi, Chung Tzu, etc) to help us speed up the process.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2020
  19. The Amazing Sam's Ego

    The Amazing Sam's Ego Banned at Members Request

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    The Bible makes sense because of universal moral givens. Thats why we need a Savior-because of our sinful nature. A good judge cannot let a criminal go unpunished. Jesus dying on the cross was like a lawyer who takes the punishment of a a person who committed a crime, but that person has to accept that free gift in order to be saved. I dont believe in Taoism because it doesnt believe in the sinfulness of people and the holiness of God.

    https://www.gotquestions.org/taoism-daoism.html

    I dont believe in spiritual forces because God created the universe and God couldnt create the universe if God was the universe. Everything having a design and a purpose means that only a loving, personal God could have created everything that exists. I dont agree with the mystical worldview of star wars.

    https://www.gotquestions.org/Jedi-religion-Jediism.html

     
  20. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    See my other comment to your post, but I wanted to add to it and the 15 minute limit elapsed, so I add it here:

    It's not that a find 'the belief in the existence of a God too incredulous to be possible', it's that it is not logical.

    That there might be a non-deity spiritual basis to life, that makes more sense to me. The ultimate source of life and consciousness is spiritual in nature, but it is not a 'God'. Divinity is within in us, this is what the mystics teach, and it is also taught in the Gospel Of Thomas ( 114 sayings attributed to Jesus, but it doesn't matter who wrote them, they are the writings of a mystic, and to me, that's all that matters )

    So, how you framed by belief is not the lens I am using to come to my determination. I go by what makes the most sense, noting that what is logical to me would not be logical to Christian, noting that I don't look at the universe through a Christian's lens.
     
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  21. The Amazing Sam's Ego

    The Amazing Sam's Ego Banned at Members Request

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    I agree with right living and right conduct but I dont agree with meditation because we are supposed to be sober minded. I dont agree with mindfulness, because God is a jealous God. Even if you are just doing it out of curiosity and its not an idol or a major part of your life or a replacement of God its not healthy because it creates self worship.

    I think we should be concerned with God, because God created us. Wouldnt you wanna know a parent? What makes a Heavenly Father different?

    https://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-meditation.html

     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2020
  22. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    Which explains why Judas then hung himself out of shame. Betrayal is hardly heroic. It is the epitome and part and parcel of all the wickedness which came to bear upon Jesus. It is also self evident that Jesus's enemies already knew who he was. And that he would have been crucified regardless of Judas betrayal. It is a story of the poignancy of Jesus's suffering, not to exalt the macabre nature of the hearts of his afflicters. And that he died not to save them/us in our sins, but from our sins.
     
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  23. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    You logic arises from a Christian indoctrination, your logic assumes a Christian view of the world to be the only true view of the world.

    Your logic is circular. For example, I'll ask a Christian, "why do you believe in God?:

    He answers: "The Bible tells me so".

    I ask, 'Well, who wrote the Bible?"

    He answers, "But of course, God wrote it".

    See, that's circular logic.


    Without a Christian indoctrination, it's not logical at all.

    I have no 'book' that dictates to me how I am 'supposed to live'.

    I live by my own authority, and derive my knowledge and beliefs from my own experience. If Christ, Buddha, Lao Tzu, etc., can do this, why not I?

    In fact, that IS what they teach ( though you won't find it in the 'Bible' ).

    What Jesus taught his inner circle is alluded to but not actually in, the Bible.

    I believe the Gospel Of Thomas to be his esoteric teaching.

    Whether or not Christ actually wrote the Gospel Of Thomas (or spoke the words that others transcribed), does not matter, it's just that they are the sayings of a mystic, and to me, that is all that matters.

    Books teach me, but they do not 'dictate' to me (dictate = supposed to...etc), the distinction is important.

    There is no personal God, there is divinity within us, and the antithesis of that divinity is the ego, from which 'jealousy' arises.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2020
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  24. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

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    I think the OP is a bit confused about the different designations of spirituality and deism. They are different things. In other words you don't need to believe in a deity to believe there is a spiritual aspect to life.
     
  25. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    you mean like waiting in your dead body for 3 days pretending to be dead before rising?
     

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