Can Pharma and CDC deny civil liberties?

Discussion in 'Civil Liberties' started by Eleuthera, Nov 7, 2021.

  1. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Society shouldn't be paying for the outcome of drug addiction. But that is the box we've voted ourselves into. It doesnt negate the individuals right to choose (and to choose poorly).
     
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  2. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

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    So you think a waitress working 30 years in a bar and can't afford health insurance should be allowed to die of pneumonia because of her COPD and we should assist those who want to work around a toxic substance by allowing them to be further exposed to that toxic substance. How very libertarian of you.
     
  3. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Where did you get all that from? Cuz it certainly didn't come from what I said...
     
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  4. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    That is irrelevant. Fetuses don't rape. And indeed unless the woman herself was raped, she is responsible for the fetus being where he/she/it is. I understand that you disagree with the people who see the unborn as people. I lean in that direction myself. But that does not mean there aren't people who do see things that way, and in their case telling them to get vaxed for the benefit of others will be seen as hypocritical if you also say women should be allowed to kill children because of bodily autonomy. I'm the vaccine case, the chance of one unvaxed person harming others is low whereas in the abortion case it is definite.
     
  5. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Some do. Unless you wish to live in anarchy.
     
  6. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thats only the case due to anarchy not being a viable alternative. There is nowhere one may choose to live in anarchy without also necessarily choosing to live as a criminal. This likely due to those having lived under anarchy deciding that it wasn't a good way to live ...but still, the fact remains that living in anarchy is not really a choice thats available, which makes it moot as a debate point.

    Its also worth noting that from the perspective of govt, 'some do' (or some dont) isnt relavent either because the precedent of 'some do' just means all do. Which this leads to the result of us not having any rights whatsoever.

    So I still maintain that fundamentally we have rights. ...its just that we have to be willing to enforce those rights, or it will be enforced upon us that we have no rights.
     
  7. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Well... under anarchy there are no rules, so people can force others to do whatever they want if they are stronger. So, I think any government could be seen as a sort of "anarchy", in a sense.
     
  8. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

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    Then maybe you should reread what you wrote. "Society shouldn't be paying for the outcome of drug addiction." My example got COPD from a blown smoke environment made up of cigarette addicts and Medicaid and Medicare will be paying for frequent hospital admissions. That wouldn't have happened with a no smoking sign.
    "It doesnt negate the individuals right to choose (and to choose poorly)." Society has laws against poor choices like not wearing a seat belt or helmet laws because usually society has to pay for what dumb asses get themselves into.
     
  9. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    As Thomas Paine noted centuries ago, the rights of man derive from our birthrights.

    Governments derive from man creating them. Usurpation and tyranny are the end of every government every created. Bad news, but reality.
     
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  10. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    They would be further exposed whether they worked in such a place or not. They're addicted as you said, and will continue to expose themselves. As to whether or not society should pay for such actions, that is another matter, and with maybe some exceptions, I personally don't think society should.
     
  11. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    Please don't conflate several issues into one. Healthcare and how it is provided and paid for is a whole other topic.

    But we do understand. You don't value freedom. You want to control what people do and don't do with their bodies. How very conservative/religious of you.
     
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  12. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    You seem to have as much trouble understanding how a parallel works as does @chris155au .

    Indeed, and she also has the right to withdraw her consent to it being there.

    My position works and holds constant even with born people as it does with unborn people. Being people doesn't change a thing. A person's right of bodily autonomy means that another cannot, intentionally or unintentionally, take of that person's bodily resources without permission. And permission can be withdrawn at any point except after the fact. Pregnancy is not after the fact it is during the fact.

    And the same principle also stands for causing harm. The odds of an unvaxxed person causing harm to, i.e. infecting, another depends upon what said vaccine is for. As I noted, I am speaking on the overall principle and not on any one specific vaccine. Which is why I noted that with some vaccines, a mandate would be legitimate based upon bodily autonomy principles, and with others it would not.
     
  13. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    No society does not have to pay for people doing stupid things. With the exception of most of youth, we would probably be better off to let more people qualify for the Darwin Awards. Society pays for their stupidity (in the context of the harm that they do to themselves) only if the overall chooses to.
     
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  14. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

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    It seems I have a lot to answer for....

    The damage done by a toxin is a function of amount of exposure and genetics. Nothing can be done about vulnerability due to genetics but something can be done about the amount of exposure. Toxin exposure is controlled by society to benefit society and it is noncontroversial to most.

    I and most people do not want people to die from cancer, a head injury, a gunshot wound, HIV, diabetes...because they can't afford the treatment. You do.

    You seem to value freedumb over a civilized society.
     
  15. Jarlaxle

    Jarlaxle Banned

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    Many people would much prefer to work in a place that allows smoking. My good friend was a waiter when the state banned smoking in restaurants and bars...and his tips cratered OVERNIGHT. He took about a 40% pay cut THAT DAY.
     
  16. Jarlaxle

    Jarlaxle Banned

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    Money-it allows the shaking down of people to feed city coffers.. It also gives police an excuse to harass people.
     
  17. Jarlaxle

    Jarlaxle Banned

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    So...do you, then, suggest banning rock climbing, skydiving, motocross, MMA, boxing, BMX riding, BASE jumping and ski-jumping?
     
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  18. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    What kills me is why didn't anyone think to cater to the non-smoking crowd of the time and promote the crap out of that fact? As private property they could could ban smoking in their property despite being legal otherwise.
     
  19. cristiansoldier

    cristiansoldier Well-Known Member

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    I have asked this question many times and never received an answer. If you ever get an answer let me know. I have said many times, I constantly see words and comments like "Freedom", "My body my choice", "Right to choose" etc... If they truly believe this I respect their stance. If they have been fighting for the rights of people to not get the Polio, Chicken Pox, vaccines etc... which are mandatory in all 50 states I totally respect them and they truly seem to believe in Freedoms. BUT if they have been silent this whole time getting those shots and sending their kids to get the shots then they scream "Freedom" now. Well it is not Freedoms that they are fighting for is it? They simply do not like this vaccine so lets not disguise it as a freedom issue.
     
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  20. Daniel Light

    Daniel Light Well-Known Member

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    Isn't it the Libertarian position that your rights end where my nose begins. At what point does your right to infect others end?

    Ahh, I remember not long ago when the righties on this board had massive butt hemorrhages when Obama allowed an American citizen infected
    with Ebola into the country. Why would the CDC have the right to quarantine an Ebola carrier? Isn't that the same principle of suspending
    that person's liberty? And do remember, that for over 400,000 American Citizens, Covid has ben every bit as deadly as Ebola.
     
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  21. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    Anti-vaxx is not something new to COVID. The push back has been going on for quite a while. My stepdaughter (before she became such) almost died because someone refused to vaccinate their child against Whooping Cough. Their child then caught it and she was exposed prior to her being old enough to get the vaccine. She was very lucky in that her mom gave permission for her to receive an experimental treatment. She was the very first to get the treatment and it worked. IIRC it's a standard treatment now. But she had less than a 10% chance of living. So you tell me, why should that mom have the right to expose another child to a deadly communicable disease?
     
  22. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

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    Are those behaviors of the general population? What is the incidence of death and injury? Is the incidence any worse than high school football? Is that activity already regulated to minimize injury? MMA was illegal in some states when it began and head butts were popular.
     
  23. Jarlaxle

    Jarlaxle Banned

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    Some places did. But...bluntly, smokers drink more, and drinkers tip more. (Even if it's the same percentage, restaurant drinks are expensive, raising the bill and thus, the tip.)
     
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  24. Jarlaxle

    Jarlaxle Banned

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    If you believe that, you're not paying attention.
     
  25. Jarlaxle

    Jarlaxle Banned

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    Stop tap-dancing and answer the question.
     

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