Can Yahweh always do what he wills, or can people thwart him? Scriptures seem conflicted on the answ

Can Yahweh always do what he wills, or can people thwart him?

Scriptures seem conflicted on the answer.

They show an all-powerful god whose plan and will cannot be thwarted or derailed, while at the same time indicating that he cannot do his will and that people can derail his plan to save everyone.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Do you have faith?

If you do, you cannot believe in hell. You would not think god a loser by believing he saves us all, as his will indicates. Those scriptures say he has no need of a hell for us.

Do you see god as too incompetent to do his will of saving us all?

Or do you see god as a universalist god who does his will and saves us all?

Regards
DL

 

He did nothing to save the Jewish race from Spanish Inquisition to Russian pogroms to the 3rd Reich

 

Interesting, you have not quoted any specific scripture demonstrating this claim, and the two verses you did quote seem to have nothing to do with that.

 

I think you misunderstand the word "will" in this verse. This was older more archaic English where many words had slightly different common meanings than they commonly are understood today.

"Will" means wants, desires, or intends.

So in archaic form, I might say "I will that you go to the dance with me", which simply means I want you to come with me, but I'm not going to force you.

 

Some believe that was prophesied.
http://www.unvsil.com/holocaust.htm

 

We have Will too. I think theres likely a difference between what God wants and what God 'Wills' and sometimes The Bible is not making clear that distinction.

For example, God would prefer we all join Him in Heaven, and the Bible may refer to that as His 'will' even though we will not be forced to go there against our own will. Some of us may not be content there, and in order for us to be able to excersize our own will, there must necessarily be an alternative to Heaven where we may choose to exist.

Hell may not even be torturous for these folks who would choose to go there. Its likely that some souls have turned so evil and foul that an eternity basking in the Joy and Peace of Gods presence would cause them just as much suffering as an eternity void of it would be for the rest of us. Its been theorized by Biblical metaphoricists (as opposed to Bible literalists) that the 'Hellfire' is the closest understandable description of the sensation the human soul experiences when completely removed from Gods presence, as opposed to an actual lake of fire or magma that literalists cite.

Perhaps for those who have twisted themselves (their souls) to enjoy the suffering of others also prefer the suffering of themselves.

 

True, but nothing in scriptures say that that was his will, which is why I chose those quotes that do.

Regards
DL

 

If you cannot see the two quotes as speaking to his will, when they obviously do, you would not likely have accepted anything on the conflict hinted at.

Regards
DL

 

Possibly. In the case of an omnipotent god, his super powers of persuasion would insure, by convincing you, to go dance with him.

Regardless, the definition of words in a philosophical chat happen after a general acceptance of terms and not before.

Regards
DL

 

"Centuries earlier the prophet Daniel had foretold that an exceptionally cruel foreign ruler would hurt and kill the Jewish people over a period of three and a half years. Did the Bible foretell the Holocaust?"

I think you blew this one.

The Jews were not persecuted by a foreign leader. They were German Jews and their rightful ruler was Hitler.

This a deflection from the O.P. though, and given that Jews themselves are told not to read the Torah literally, I do not want to discus this.

Regards
DL

 

Stats show that the S & M demography is really small.

To your first.

Biblical metaphoricists that I read think more along the lines of fire as where we put our ideas to the fire so as to purify them.

That is what the burning bush is all about.

We think that most of the things that happen in scriptures should be looked at from a spiritual view and not a carnal view.

John 6 ; 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Regards
DL

 

Well ya, thats kinda what I was talking about. Spiritual suffering, not physical.

 

Ok.

Consider why I did not understand your notion of that being suffering because I see it as more of a gift that a suffering.

I don't know what you debate for, and put your ideas to that fire, but mine is more to lose than to win, while not pulling my punches, so to speak.

If I win, I get nothing. My ego does not need bolstering.

If I lose, I gain a correction of my ideas and an improvement/ purification on my views.

Regards
DL

 

I don't think I have the proper frame of reference to truly understand the spiritual suffering that would result from existing void of God/Jesus/Creator. Maybe 'spiritual suffering' isn't a word that accurately translates from my understanding to yours... but suffice to say, it doesn't sound to me like we're talking about the same thing. I don't 'suffer' in any meaningful way when I find my understanding to be incorrect and in need of adjustment.

 

Good. Perhaps I miss-read you.

We should all appreciate being corrected as we should all want to become the fittest humans we can be.

Regards
DL

 

I have faith ! - that God chuckles when he/she stops by - to see what is happening - check on the experiment.

Chuckles at all these characteristics that humans have attributed to the Godhead.

Thwart Gods will ? - I am sure when God checks in - God is curious how the experiment is going - perhaps he favored one way - but the humans are acting another. Does he interrupt the experiment ? or just let it continue on its own - wait to see what happens.

Or does God know how the experiment will turn out prior to starting it - and if so any thwarting of Gods will by the experiment would be something God intended and generated - thus making it impossible to "thwart Gods will".

Nice - thought provoking OP

 

Thanks much Giftedone.

A song he, in my case, lives by.



Regards
DL

We do our best, in a Tower of Babble, to give a new thought.

Regards
DL

 

Are you trying to say that when God shows up - its "Hammer Time" ?

Who knows what the Ghost in the machine is up to ! "Lets Scramble the Languages because those human's are getting to smart" supposedly this happened sometime after the Biblical Flood - so roughly 2100-2300 BC.

Sounds like something Loki would do -

 

People are given free will, so they can either do God's will by turning to Him and repenting for their shortcomings, or do their own will.

God cannot save people, people can only save themselves by recognizing themselves as sinners and repenting. To put it into contemporary terms, people cannot make the leap from this dimension into God's dimension, unless they have a change of mind and heart before they die. Once they do die they cannot change.

 

And Christians could say God did nothing to save the 20 million Christians, and 300 thousand clergy who died under Lenin and Stalin. Or the 300 Christians who were being killed everyday this past decade, and by the very terrorists our government supported. Or the thousands of Christians who were thrown to the lions, or set on fire in Rome to light up the stadium, or the 2 million killed in the last century by Turkey, etc., etc.

But it doesn't matter because in the end, God's Will will prevail.

 

That is why I think Yahweh to be quite the prick.

Regards
DL

 

Your notion that we have a free will is belied by your own bible in all instances.

Are non-believers doomed by Divine Design?

Scriptures say that God decides if a person will be a believer or non-believer. Those scriptures are shown in this link.



Those quotes seems to really screw up the free will notion that Christians say God gives us.

The free will that God offers is kind of a joke anyway given the number of people whose free will to live is ignored in the billions of adults, children and babies that God is shown to torture and murder in scriptures.

If the bible and Yahweh are to be believed, and as a non-believer, I, of course, cannot believe it, thanks to God, by God’s design and will against me, then why did God deny me belief or faith?

Even more important to believers, might be to answer the question of; did God make you a believer in things that you can only hope exists and can never confirm?

Are you happy with God ignoring or negating your free will to think as you please?

I have assumed that God’s work of creating both believers and non-believers is working. If that is so, and you believers must think it so, just as I as a non-believer cannot think it is working, --- and Jesus said that those with faith could do all he did and more, --- then there is not even one believer or person of faith that has ever existed.

Either the bible and Christianity is all a lie, or there must be some who can do what Jesus did.

What is your choice of those two options?

Is the bible and Christianity a lie, or is God just not creating any people with faith, --- which would make all Christians who say they have faith, --- liars.

I mean no insult here but someone is definitely lying, if we read what is written and look at reality and listen to Christians.

What do you think is the truth?

Is it just for God to create people doomed to hell even if they wanted to believe?

Regards
DL

 

So you think god's will likes that the many are called, but few hear it.

You might want to rethink that, while remembering that we have no free will, as you read above from your own bible.

Regards
DL

 

How can I answer you when your mind is set on negating Scripture and finding faults so as to denigrate Scripture - while mine is on an acceptance of Scripture so I can gain a higher comprehension of God? What this means is; I can't find any logic in anything you wrote.

 

That is because you accuse me of what you are doing, which is ignoring your bible.

You are so busy trying to put a positive spin to evil, that you are ignoring your scriptures that I am trying to get you to acknowledge.

Remain as stupid as you like, while accusing me unjustly.

Regards
DL