Can you be liberal and Christian at the same time?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Spooky, May 23, 2018.

  1. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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  2. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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  3. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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  4. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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  5. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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  6. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Nonsense. The point is not whether it has intrinsic value, the point is that it represents value and it's fungible.

    And, our farmers feed FAR more than themselves. The removing their motivation for doing that hits me as stupid.
     
  7. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    Yes it represents value, but the examples I gave show a real difference between intrinsic value versus price determined in an environment of market failure (or even a functional market, or any way 'value' is determined in our present financial system) ie, there is no 'moral' law prohibiting the controlled printing of money to increase real community wealth. The 'law' (of orthodox neoliberalism) prohibiting controlled printing of money, far from being based in any real economics, is based on competitive instincts and a preference for war as the ultimate arbiter of access to the world's resources.

    (I'm patient). You are conflating an explanatory concept (ie farmers producing food without being paid) with a desire (non-existent on my part) to see that concept in reality - which I am certainly not advocating.

    Let me state the argument another way: in the absence of money, we would nevertheless all set about producing or obtaining the necessities of life eg by growing our own food, presumably those with plant seeds would also be keen to share and partake in this (food-growing) activity, to feed themselves and also avoid the conflict that would arise from knowingly hoarding seeds....

    Again, I am not advocating this as a system, I am merely pointing out that money has no intrinsic value; rather real 'value' (ie not 'representative', and regardless of motivation) lies in the real food and vital services produced.

    Re your apparent hang up on 'motivation': some talented people are motivated solely by the joy of artistic creation, regardless of monetary reward. And as for the rest of us, if the work is available that allows us to earn an above poverty existence, we will take it, but under-employment even in the first world is running at 15 %; and it goes downhill from there in much of the rest of the world, so all the motivation in the world won't do you much good if you are among those systemically excluded from work, in a dysfunctional global economy. (And Trump is doing his best to reduce employment in the German steel and car industries ….)

    I note you haven't commented on the real example (not conceptual or fictional) of debt-laden Indian farmers committing suicide because of a bountiful harvest.

    And like Ndividual (if indeed you are not him...) you have not explained why money, unlike, say iron or copper,cannot be created 'ex nihilo' (just as private banks do in our present system).

    I'm saying the IMF could have kept Venezuela afloat by printing Venezuelan bolivars, thereby granting time for the Venezuelan government to adjust to the collapse in oil revenues, without any negative effects on the external world economy ie by ensuring no increased draw on real external resources.

    I'm saying all nations could fund public education, other than by taxation, by access to managed public sector money printing, since education is the transfer of knowledge from teacher to student, requiring no increased draw on scarce physical resources.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2018
  8. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    OK, there is one tiny piece of all this that I agree with.

    One of the problems we see in the EU is that most EU nations are tied to the Euro. So, an individual country in economic stress can't have its currency devalued. That removes a significant economic tool.

    But, the rest of this is ridiculous. Our borrowing behavior is bad enough. Augmenting that by turning Congress loose to literally print money so they can pay for things by devaluing our currency? No thank you.
     
  9. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Good objective - even if we don't succeed. My comment was in reference to a specific scenario you proposed.

    Giving aid and other help to many in Detroit may be necessary. But, printing money for them isn't a solution. And, it's even less of a solution when applied to other nations.

    So, what do you think we should do for Greece or Detroit?
     
  10. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    True. But if the EU had a proper banking union, like the federation of US states, the need to consider devaluation as an economic tool would be removed (but the different languages would make such a union more difficult to achieve).

    Let's start with "our borrowing behaviour is bad enough".

    [Bear in mind some economists dispute that government debt is a problem, though I disagree with them , and I hate the idea of taxes levied solely to pay off accumulated government debt.
    OTOH I acknowledge the private sector, motivated by personal gain, will never be capable of eliminating disadvantage in the community]

    Why does govt. have to pay for education via taxation, and even so burden higher education students with debt at the beginning of their careers (this reality is apparently worse in the US)?

    You talk about devaluing the currency.

    Apparently expenditure on public education at all levels is the largest bill of all public expenditures, amounting on average to 5.2% of GDP in the US and EU. (Sorry the site won't let me copy that information directly). So we are talking c.$800 billion annually in US government expenditure for public education.

    Question: if all countries' governments printed the money for the specific purpose of education, bearing in mind that education does not increase demand for scarce real physical resources, how would this devalue any currency in relation to any other currency?

    Even if the world's money becomes 'worth a bit less' (say 'devalued' by 5%) across all countries - so what, in the face of a massive 'free' global education boom. There would be no change in the trade relationship between all the countries, and no increased consumption of scarce materials (though a small one-off increase in public housing and public transport would be required as people move out of poverty but not wealthy enough to enter the high consumption private housing and vehicle markets.

    Naturally such global co-operation requires strengthening the necessary global institutions, apparently some distance from present realities - but I think the theory remains sound.

    [I'm open to a clear explanation as to why my theory as presented above does not hold up - something beyond the mere statement of bogey words like 'inflation' and 'devaluation'.]
     
  11. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    The OP asked "can you be both liberal and christian at the same time?"
    The most rationally obvious answer to such a question would be, it depends upon the issue(s) being discussed AND how they're being applied.
     
  12. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    I hope I have explained this satisfactorily by now. Perhaps a simpler example to describe what I mean by intrinsic value, as opposed to the value of a piece of paper (legal tender) with numbers on it (and a nice photo of Washington): you are in a cell with release 12 months away. Every month (or the maximum time you remain alive without food) two plates are presented; one with a nutritious meal , the other with $1 million in $1000 bills. Which do you choose?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_bankruptcy

    A sorry saga indeed.

    The memorandum discusses in depth the major objections raised by various parties to the city's eligibility, and finds that the objections are either unfounded in law or insufficient factually to deny the city eligibility for Chapter 9. The judge concluded the memorandum with a reminder to all interested parties that eligibility is only a preliminary step in a Chapter 9 case, and that the "ultimate objective is confirmation of a plan of adjustment....the Court strongly encourages the parties to begin to negotiate, or if they have already begun, to continue to negotiate, with a view toward a consensual plan."[73]

    Apparently Detroit exited bankruptcy in 2014, after extended court cases involving creditors, pension funds, city utilities etc etc.

    What should we do now?

    Obviously my solution involves managed money printing.

    Let me cite the case of Puerto Rico, whose wealth was largely destroyed by an 'act of God'.

    The quickest way to return that country to a functioning economy by repairing its housing and infrastructure is for a (postulated) IMF to print the funds to bring together all the services required for that specific purpose.

    In relation to the global economy the amount invested would be minute, therefore no excess demands on scarce resources would eventuate from such a rebuilding program - in fact it would inject some much needed stimulation into the current low inflation global economy.

    So to Detroit; there must be acres of abandoned housing (pop. in 1950 c1.8 million; currently c.700 million). Not an act of God, but a result of a dysfunctional global trading system, over time.

    Another case for presentation to the IMF printing press...the possibilities for that city's renewal are endless.

    As for Greece, all debts should be paid by the IMF immediately, so that the Greek economy can resume a growth path. (Many people think, in the present circumstances, Greece will soon be forced back to the IMF to raise more debt, despite the fact that govt services have been cut to the bone and taxes have been increased, ensuring a descent into poverty for ever more of its citizens.

    [BTW, you mentioned congress; Obama tried to reform the IMF, but the Repubs would not co-operate, the effect of which is that the US still has the majority of the voting rights, but refuses to contribute funds consistent with those rights. Self-interest in all its glory]
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2018
  13. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    Exactly.

    For example (for a bit of comic relief): I spied in a German newspaper a comment from an admiring German Trump fan that he is the world's greatest "pick-up artist". (The Germans like sprinkling their speech with English colloquialisms).

    So my question is: can anyone be the world's greatest pickup artist, and a Christian at the same time?

    Back to Jesus:

    "Consider the lilies of the field, they neither sow nor reap, but Solomon in all his glory was not arraigned as one of these"

    Another argument for my concept of "intrinsic value"?

    (No doubt Van Gogh has been invited into Christ's august company).
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2018
  14. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    Let's try and stick to simply answering the threads topic question "Can you be liberal and Christian at the same time?"

    Your response of "Exactly." was sufficient.
     
  15. Pants

    Pants Well-Known Member

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    Being a Christian is to live 'Christ-like'. That involves caring for those less fortunate than yourself. Loving thy neighbor. Feeding the hungry and poor. Those who are fighting for Universal Healthcare are living Christ-like. They want everyone to have access to doctors and hospitals and medicine. They don't complain about having to pay more in tax dollars for the 'lazy on welfare'. I have never understood the Christian Republicans - the term is simply oxymoronic!
     
  16. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    Separation of Church and State, a Christian refers to their personal/private life and a Republican their political life, and which most Liberals (Democrats and other Left labels) seem to not want mixed.
     
  17. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    No, our banking system is not equipped to have the dollar be worth more in some places than in other places.

    Different languages is not a problem. Other countries deal with many languages even within their own border. It's just that our own population is pretty much ignorant when it comes to language. Nobody in Europe speaks only one language - nobody.
    Education isn't cheap, so the cost is divided between various entities. Duh!
    Oh, please. Just think about it.
    Free global education boom??? What's that even mean?

    I agree that education is a good investment. The average college graduate makes a million bucks more than the average guy who only graduates high school. The taxes on that million bucks is only one of the ways our nation gets paid for that.
    I have no idea what "global co-operation" you are talking about.

    If you say "print money" then inflation and devaluation have to be central features of ANY further discussion.
     
  18. saltydancin

    saltydancin Banned

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    Far too late with the advent of MAGA as who'd of guessed the supreme swastika up Uranus court justice with yet another immaculate drug conception to protect & serve Federal Lynching churchstate of hate KKK cops which baptize eyes by urination foreshadowing what ever 9/11 is as West Nazi Germany Virginia's KKK thieving old testament-old glory arsonists churchtstate cops which baptize thine eyes by urinations foreshadowing stealing a US Constitution off the wall of a navy hospital to burn on a cross in this Christian Nation
     
  19. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Nope. The fact that those are polar opposites precludes anyone from being both, short of having multiple personalities.
     
  20. saltydancin

    saltydancin Banned

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    The schizoid tendencies certainly manifest those liberal Islam Christiananality more perfect union pedophile mentalities when they invoke "in God we trust" as to be as super ego lily brilliant white as they can deem themselves a personality.
     
  21. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    OK

    1. What would be the effect (assuming no corruption) of the IMF printing US$1trillion for the repair of Costa Rica (destroyed by Hurricane), Haiti (destroyed by earthquake), and Detroit destroyed by absence of global oversight of trade? (As I said, the amount of printed money required would be minute in comparison to the world economy)

    2. Further, what would be the effect of the IMF printing the funds to enable the repayment of all government debt, on condition that no govt. goes into debt thereafter? (given the next point, on-going govt expenditures could be much reduced).
    Interestingly, Deuteronomy commands that all debt be cancelled every 7 years…….

    3. As for education, how would inflation or devaluation result from universal 'free' education, funded by IMF money printing, given that education does not consume scarce physical resources?

    Actually, can you discuss the last point first, because if you can demonstrate the error in this last proposition (re 'free" education), the first two points don't require further consideration.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2018
  22. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    It would cause the US to find and destroy the printing presses, jail those who directed that act, and ensure the destruction of the IMF.

    Obviously
    ibid

    Also, Deuteronomy was referencing loans made between individuals.
    [/QUOTE]
    ibid

    I would pay more taxes in order to get more students through college. Our economy and that of the world are moving in a direction that requires participants to have more education. Failing this is to allow economic decline of America.
     
  23. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    I note your comment above (underlined by me).

    All well and good, except of course the Right will not generally allow "more taxation" under any circumstances (except maybe for 'defence' purposes).

    Hence my search for another method of funding education.

    Can you demonstrate the significance or effect of the quantum of inflation that would result from universal (global) education (across all nations), funded by IMF money printing, given that education does not consume scarce physical resources?
     
  24. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Then we are looking at a sizable swath of democrats, who are affected with multiple personalities. Of course, it could very well be just incoherence, created by strong emotions. I would not dismiss that as being likely.

    But the DP have deserted their FDR roots, and when Princeton used congressional record to evidence the average american is no longer being represented by either party, this looks very much like oligarchy. Oligarchy is a form of fascism. Look it up.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2018
  25. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Fascism is best represented in the US today by trump.
     

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