Capitalism vs Collectivism- whats the real debate?

Discussion in 'Economics & Trade' started by modernpaladin, Nov 5, 2017.

  1. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    Take a look at the African Bushmen.
     
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  2. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You said it would be acheived gradually once we returned the means of production to the people...

    What you didnt say is how the people that produce more are prevented from becoming wealthier than people who produce less. If they are not prevented from doing so, how is the 'classless' society maintained?
     
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  3. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    As a result of previous posts I think he feels that it is governments duty to redistribute from those who are more productive and better decision makers to those who are less productive, make poor decisions, and those who are non-productive and depend on decisions made by politicians for their continued survival. Essentially a Collectivist society.
     
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  4. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    To what "classless society" are you referring? Didn't I say there would be no "classless society" in the foreseeable future and for many generations? So I'm unclear on what you are referring to, and it makes a big difference. So, what "classless society"?

    [Edit]: I just learned about this. If you're serious about actually wanting to know about collectives, workers' co-ops, and not just somebody's thoughts and dreams but actual "on-the-ground" developments happening now, you may be interested in this: https://zoom.us/webinar/register/WN_k_-P9_tbS0WZJhN9fvG-Qw
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
  5. james M

    james M Banned

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    capitalism is voluntary peaceful individual economic relationships
    communism is violent collective relationships maintained at gunpoint.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2017
  6. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    thats communism as it has been historically applied. The basic theory of communism has no centralization or authority behind it. Unfortunately, the only way it would really work without a centralized authority is with a hivemind population (or hivemind-like in behavior).

    Keep in mind that capitalism isnt historically 'peaceful' or 'voluntary' either. Not for very long, anyway. Just as communism always attracts a centralized authority, the conpetition in capitalism always leads to mafia-style corruption and monopoly.

    There is currently no escaping the dynamic of human nature- a few of us always seek control over the rest (though capitalism does at least provide a far better buffer against the controllers than communism does).
     
  7. james M

    james M Banned

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    of course that's not true. it starts our according to Marx with govt ownership of central industries
     
  8. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Communism has never been "applied", whatever that means. But it has never existed.

    Since we have never seen it anywhere because the conditions for it to exist have never yet been near existed, you don't know that.


    Again, communism has never attracted anything because communism has never existed outside of early, primitive tribal societies, and they don't count. But I agree about capitalism.


    Again, you can't know that. But human nature is that of a social animal. We experience mental troubles if we live solitary lives, and humanity has always thrived in societies. So your fears about humanity being unable to overcome, cooperatively, dominating and damaging rulers are not valid. The early tribal Native American societies that were communal/communist in nature didn't find your warnings were their common and normal experience.
     
  9. james M

    james M Banned

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    100% wrong of course. If it leads there then it is no longer capitalism when it gets there. The idea is to always lead it toward capitalism not away toward corruption or monopoly or Nazism or communism. Do you understand?
     
  10. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thats Marxism. He didn't 'invent' communism. Communism developed long ago as a natural system by people who believed it was wrong to compete with eachother and instead opted to work for eachother. Cite- the first Christian communities in the religion's infancy.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2017
  11. james M

    james M Banned

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    capitalism does not allow control only survival when and if you have the best products in the world. Do you understand?
     
  12. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Just as capitalism is no longer capitalism when it becomes corporatism and communism is no longer communism when it becomes marxism
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2017
  13. james M

    james M Banned

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    of course he did. His thinking on the subject is 1 millions times more influential than anyones and led to 120 million slowly starving to death!! He is the God of communism!!
     
  14. james M

    james M Banned

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    no idea what your point is????
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2017
  15. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Your criticisms of communism would apply, and need to be applied, to nations rather than exceptional communities within nations. But tell me since you know about them, how did those Christian communities work out and how did they end?
     
  16. james M

    james M Banned

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    capitalism and corporatism are opposites while communism and Marxism are the same. Do you understand?
     
  17. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Doesnt allow control? If you control enough resource, you innevitably start to control people who need that resource.
     
  18. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Ok that's ridiculous. Capitalism evolves just as any economy does. It is a system of private ownership for private profit and operates with a specific relationship between worker and owner, and that is one in which the owner hires workers to produce. And that is the sort of system that exists in corporatism. Most importantly the relationship of worker and owner remains.
     
  19. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't know. I suspect they succumbed to human nature- someone got greedy and used the system to control others until they 'disbanded.'
     
  20. james M

    james M Banned

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    monasteries in northern Italy invented capitalism. They were highly disciplined productive folks who had surpluses to sell and did, eventually all the way to northern Europe and the industrial revolution. This is the track that capitalism took according to many.
     
  21. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Who are you talking to here? I can't relate that to anything I said. Maybe you're replying to someone on my "ignore" list and I therefore cannot see their post or your quote of their post.
     
  22. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    And they didn't naturally evolve from socialism as Marx said communism would. Big difference. It means the groundwork was not done.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2017
  23. james M

    james M Banned

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    exactly if owner does not offer best jobs and products in world workers and customers quit and owner goes bankrupt. This happens 10,000 times a month in USA. No wonder most prefer to be workers.
     
  24. james M

    james M Banned

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    ever once see a conservative who has to run from a debate?
     
  25. james M

    james M Banned

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    you can have all the resources you want but to survive you need to have the best products and jobs in the world that raise the world's standard of living at the fastest possible rate. That's the pure beauty of capitalism.
    and, anti trust takes care of resource monopoly if it ever happens anyway. Care to try again?
     

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