Christian printer sued after refusing to print same-sex civil union invitations

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by sec, Nov 24, 2015.

  1. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    the discrimination is not based on the sexual preferences, it's based on gender

    if two heterosexual males asked for the same exact invites, they would be denied too, so it's gender based descrimination
     
  2. maat

    maat Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is based on a ceremony that is an abomination of the Christians religion. It could have been joe and bobs victory party invites that would have been no problem. It could have been two gay guys celebrating a birthday and been no problem. An anniversary or wedding represents sexual/reproductive mating union.
     
  3. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    if one can't sell it to everyone without discriminating, don't sell it or open a private club
     
  4. cd8ed

    cd8ed Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Same sex unions are of no issue to millions of Christians.
    When you open a business, that business is required to follow local state and federal laws - at issue is that some christians believe their chosen religion elevates them above laws. They are not forced to open a business open to the public so their freedom of religion has not been impacted.

    If their chosen belief structure precludes them from opening a business they are always free to practice their chosen form of discrimination and open a place of "worship".
     
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  5. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    No, several denominations of Christianity actually perform marriages between same sex couples and invite them to be members. There are also many independent Christian churches that accept same sex relationships, including marriage.


    Trying to turn Christianity into an economic "denial of services" attack is not acceptable.
     
  6. maat

    maat Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Christianity has many denominations because there are different interpretations of the scriptures. What other Christians do or believe does not necessarily represent my beliefs. The bible is clear that homosexuality is a sin and abomination. It is well within a Christians right to not participate in a homosexual ceremony. The fact that current federal law supports gays does not make them constitutional. Our founders would be appalled at trampling Christians 1st amendments religious rights, let alone recognizing perversions.
     
  7. CausalityBreakdown

    CausalityBreakdown Banned at Members Request

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    Sex is a behaviour, sexual orientation is a trait.

    And trust me, if sexual orientation was a choice, there would be no LGBT people. Being straight makes life so much easier. There are people that kill themselves every day because of the hardships LGBT people endure as a result of living in a prejudiced society. If you think that people would choose that difficulty, you're demonstrating a complete failure to understand humanity or possess basic empathy.
     
  8. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Christianity is divided on this subject. So, you need to identify your belief as being yours (or you could identify a denomination).

    Same sex marriage is constitutional - there is absolutely no doubt about that. In fact, laws against that are what is unconstitutional.

    Early Americans were not interested in freedom of religion. They were interested in the dominance of THEIR religion, regardless of others. Many didn't like the situation in England, because they weren't of the dominant religion. In fact, before the revolution the taxes of some colonies went to the dominate religion. Religious freedom is seen in quite a different light today - we actually believe in individuals being treated equally, regardless of their religion!! And, that is how supreme courts have read it for a very long time.

    Your first amendment rights are not being abridged. You can say what you want. Look at the "God hates ..." Christians. Christians can say what they want, even when it is profoundly hateful.

    Public accommodation businesses (stores that open their doors to the public) are restricted in the discrimination in which they may take part. Remember the Woolworth's lunch counter? The owners of that store could have any beliefs they wanted, but as a public accommodation business, they were (and are) required by law to serve those who enter.

    Christianity also teaches tolerance, acceptance of government, and the duty of men. It does not address your rights.
     
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  9. cd8ed

    cd8ed Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Our founders would be appalled that blacks and women can vote.
    Don't want to serve the public feel free to open a church.
     
  10. maat

    maat Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It being a trait is your opinion. There is no scientific evidence to support it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Maybe southerners, but many founders were abolitionist. They just knew they could not get the votes from southern states to ratify the Constitution.
     
  11. cd8ed

    cd8ed Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Scientific, psychological and behavioral analytics show orentation is not chosen - care to post any scientific proof that it is a chosen action as you continually state. I will anticipate you ignoring this, you "christians" are masters at picking which arguments you acknowledge.

    Of course, ignore the founders you disagree with - which were in the majority - and pick the few that you agree with to make a failed argument. Again, masters
     
  12. maat

    maat Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    All sex is a chosen behavior. You can do it or not. You can choose who you do it with also. And, anyone can chose who they are aroused by, male or female. If I did not control my urges, I would hump every women on earth, but I limit myself to my wife.
     
  13. krashsmith81

    krashsmith81 New Member

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    No, you really don't.
     
  14. krashsmith81

    krashsmith81 New Member

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    Yes, those poor oppressed Christians, getting thrown in the Lion's Den again, being told they can't discriminate, I feel so bad for them. Awesome post SEC, you rock! Hey, aren't you the guy that said you can be a gay christian, as long as you don't "act on it"...?

    I'd consider changing that cute little avatar of yours, someone who is familiar with your obsession with gay sex, and previous gay bashing threads, and that avatar might get the impression you were a self loathing homosexual. Of course, I'm not saying you are, that would be a violation of forum rules I'm sure, and Cubed would get so excited to delete another one of my posts, I'm just saying someone might think that.

    Well, keep up the good fight brother, eventually maybe we can get to a point where we can stop persecuting these poor Christians, and just allow them and their talking snake theory to discriminate against gays, hell, we might even be able to overturn gay marriage and put those homos back in their place!
     
  15. cd8ed

    cd8ed Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    For the fifth time, we are not discussing the action of sex - we are discussing sexual orientation. You made the claim that no science is behind the fact that orentation is not chosen yet you can present nothing.

    If you can switch between finding a male sexually attractive and finding a female sexually attractive then newsflash - you are bisexual. Maybe you are dealing with repressed emotions you do not wish you had, maybe seek counseling.
    You made the statement - not me. I am unable to change my attractions in the way you apparently can.

    So you admit that you commit adultury daily (you have to "control your urges" to not hump every woman on earth [Mat 5:28 But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.]) yet you have the audacity to judge homosexuals. Hilarious, your is indeed misplaced.
     
  16. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You might want to take sec and research homosexuality in the animal kingdom, it is enlightening and makes the social implications relatively clear.

    Particularly the apes, as they pertain more to us Humans.
     
  17. AmericanNationalist

    AmericanNationalist Well-Known Member

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    Is it really bigotry or hatred? They simply don't want to endorse a lifestyle to which they disagree with.(And if we were supposedly this free and secular country we'd allow that to take its place.) In reality, it's biogtry and hatred to ask something of someone who can't or doesn't want to fulfill it and then to try and bankrupt them for just that.

    Is there nothing but vindictiveness in that behavior? And that's why these groups are able to draw millions while the so-called persecuted end up having to go somewhere else, which they should do in the first place!
     
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  18. Independant thinker

    Independant thinker Banned

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    They are transmen. Hence the issue.
     
  19. Troianii

    Troianii Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    yeah, I'm not a fan of telling people that their deeply held religious beliefs don't count because I don't them strongly supported in their religious texts.

    To the OP: yes, on the surface this looks like a fabricated scandal. With how many lawsuits homosexual couples are filing against openly religious groups who refuse to take part in gay weddings, and all of the alternative business options available, this looks like the couple went in with the intent of being offended and making a scene.
     
  20. CausalityBreakdown

    CausalityBreakdown Banned at Members Request

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    It's an opinion well supported by reason. Human beings are averse to causing themselves misery if they can do anything about it. Thus, someone subjected to homophobia would obviously wish to become straight.

    There's also the fact that I've never seen a straight person successfully choose to become queer.

    Both of these contribute to making my ideas vastly more likely.

    Given the massive complexity and near conspiratorial misdirection required to make your ideas even plausible, I'd say that the burden of proof is on you.
     
  21. sec

    sec Well-Known Member

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    thank you for the thought-provoking post.

    Yes, pointing out the obvious that there is no medical test to prove that someone is "homosexual" and the only way is to follow them into the bedroom is the new definition of "gay bashing" and the capital crime of "homophobia"

    What you are doing is punishing a group protected by the Constitution (religion) and saying that all one need do is claim to be gay, and relgious freedom must be trampled.

    Take a step back and think about what you support.
     
  22. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Donor

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    But it kinda seems to me that a person should be able to go into a public establishment with out being insulted..... Would it be ok to tell a handicaped person we dont serve gimps. Or to tell an autistic child to get out because we dont serve retards like you....i could create lots of examples.

    Then the question becomes whether this sort of insult is acceptable if the insult is attached to some religious pretext. But, most any sort of invidious discrimination has at some point included religious cloaking

    So maybe these gays were looking to pick a legal fight.....otoh maybe they were just tired of people treating them like excrement and shielding themselves with cloying self righteous excuses for their homophobia.... And, lets be clear, if one wanted to have a biblical basis to abuse people, there is no shortage of material. . Jews are, after all, christ killers are they not? Divorcees are adulterers, etc

    I mean gay marriage is between a man and a woman, now civil unions are also contemptible. Maybe just being gay itself is the problem.
     
  23. sec

    sec Well-Known Member

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    I fully support the "compassionate" viewpoint. Please tell all of us how we are to test those who claim to be "homosexual" to verify that they are in fact "homosexual" and thus can trample religious freedom?

    Understand that you are demanding that Christians lose religious freedom so be sure that there is a way to medically prove and verify that one actually is "homosexual"
     
  24. cd8ed

    cd8ed Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is no persecution of Christians, they chose to open a business and abide by local laws - you are the one saying they deserve special rights.

    You realize the same argument can be made for Christians correct? How do you prove one is Christian?
    All someone has to do is "claim" they are religious and they automatically get all the exceptions you are arguing for, most religious people have verses they ignore out of convenience so most would fail a religious test.

    When you develop a medical test to determine religious affiliation you have a case - until then your kind will continue to lose the legal and the social battle you've created. Hope you enjoy it! :wink:
     
  25. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    The only issue is did the printer discriminate in violation the nation is questions laws, it seems so, therefore they can and should be sued. Its not the USA here so its the nation in questions laws that apply and hold sway.
     

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