Christianity and Homosexuality

So then two Satanists (a man and a woman) who are married under the law, are married in the eyes of God, no less so than a man and a woman who were married under God?

Well I assume that it's not only your opinion, but the official position of the Mormon Church.

Why would all of this apply to non-members? Remember, you said,
"non-members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are not allowed in the Temples after they have been dedicated for their purpose."

I think that my use of the word 'natural' in this context differs from yours. I agree with you when using your use of the word.

If the sperm is prevented from reaching the egg by man-made intervention, then that is not natural.

No, but I don't see why this is relevant. Adam's marriage to Eve was perfectly in line with God's intention for what marriage should be, as laid out in Genesis.

Both of which contradict God's intention for what marriage should be, as laid out in Genesis.

 

And, that is your problem again. You dismiss the entire premise of the Atonement. That Jesus would take upon him the repented sinner's sins so that we would have a mediator or advocate between our Father in Heaven and us because of our lack of keeping the Godhead's commandments. That Atonement included death and His Resurrection. Through Christ's resurrection, we all will receive that gift promised to us in the pre-earth life as spirit children of our Heavenly Father. Where we end up after the resurrection of our bodies and spirits is based partly upon our earthly faith and works. One of those things of faith includes acceptance of revelation from our eternal Godhead including Jesus Christ. The "rock" of "revelation." That means believing that Christ has prophets and apostles called that he communicates to us through the commandments and laws of the Godhead. I have that testimony that these things are true. I've gained this testimony through the proper channels and guiding as stated in the Bible: Faith in Jesus Christ, studying upon all words of Christ through prophets and apostles (not science or secularists), without a double mind, and simply asking God in the name of Jesus Christ if these things are true. The Holy Ghost has born this witness and testimony to me.

What do you have? "I think, I think, I think...but you don't really know. You aren't Paul or anything like Paul to know. Paul knew the Lord very well. And, since you don't believe in spirits or life after death, to say to me I'm lying because the Holy Ghost told me so, is quite hypocritical and prideful. A statement you made more out of anger I would say.

 

Cougarbear: How? The Egyptian handmaiden mother of Ishmael was most likely married to Abraham before the intercourse to keep in line with the commandments. There was only two persons in the Garden of Eden. So, it had nothing to do with the intentions of God.

 

I have not dismissed - nor rejected the premise of atonement - What I reject is the premise of a "Fee Pass" through judgement aka - the man made doctrine called "Sola Fide" - Salvation by Faith alone. The reason I reject Sola Fide is because this is contrary to the teachings of Jesus .. not only for myself, but most of Christianity.

The testimony you have gained via your spirit guide is not credible - as this spirit has already been shown to be spewing falsehood - as per previous post.

"What do you have" - "I think think think" you say. Well this is much better than what you are doing .. thinking .. using brain that God gave.. but you are not .. you are advocating these skills - relying completely on a false spirit.

I never said you were lying - This sprite may well have told you things - but this was not the Holy Spirit . Did you think Stataniel was going to show up in red horns and a cape mate - cause you are sure acting like it .. as if you know .. and can outwit the tester.

I recall controversy at a Pentecostal Church - I know of this because I am related to the person who had to go in and resolve the conflict - having close relatives of the Cloth. Two members speaking in tongues in the same issue came to different - and contradictory conclusions. The Church divided on one side or the other.

There is nothing hypocritical about my questioning the nature of your spirit guide. To the contrary - my questioning of this spirit that rejects the teachings of Jesus is quite in line with everything I have been saying.

 

Ah, so it's really down to what Paul really taught and what Jesus taught. I would include with your confusion is, what "works" are? So, what were the works of Jesus Christ? He knew he must be baptized with water. But, not by just anyone. It had to be John the Baptist because he had the authority of God to baptize for the remission of sins. The Lord was without sin but the teaching of the Savior said that only through baptism may a man (or woman) enter into the Kingdom of God (Heaven). So, by example, he entered into the ordinance of baptism by emersion in water. The act, works, ordination through faith made and still makes baptism an act of love, ordinance and work of the Lord. Did Paul denounce baptism? No. In fact, it was the letter to the Corinthians in his first letter chapter 15 verse 29 that brings up the ordinance the people were performing of baptism for the dead. The one thing Paul did not do is use false facts for his teachings. My point is, Paul did teach that works were needed by the faithful unless you have had a vision and know for sure.

Paul was actually teaching about the "Law of Moses" specifically to Jewish Christians. He did not teach against adhering to the Law of Christ. We see this today with these Jews for Jesus sects that spring up and teach to live by the ancient OT laws like keeping Kosher laws. But, certainly not teaching against the law of baptism. Of course it is false now to assume that we can receive salvation through the Law of Moses because Jesus Christ was the ultimate atoning sacrifice and upon belief through him, we accept baptism into his kingdom. However, keep in mind, the atonement did not mean every commandment ever given, up until the Lord's crucifixion, was washed away. The question is which ones were washed away and which were kept. Paul, through his reception of revelation from Christ answered this. He taught against circumcision for salvation, food dietary laws of the OT for salvation and about 600 other non-essential commandments. But, he also taught that many of the commandments against vile evil are still on the books of thou shalt not do's; "unrighteous fornicators, all manner of wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, envy, pride, murder, deceit, malignity, whispers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable and unmerciful." - Romans Chapter 1:29-31.

And, for you to say it was not the Holy Ghost that opened my eyes to Jesus Christ, his Gospel, his plan of happiness and the Church he restored is silliness. Were you with me when he gave me a vision of the veil over our minds from us seeing heaven when I asked him in faith, as a Jew, that I would follow Him if he would save my very best friend at the time? And he did! Were you with me on the other several occasions that I prayed to the Father in the name of the Son for knowledge and help and he answered through the Holy Ghost? Let me give you some knowledge that I've learned through these experiences. The Holy Ghost bears witness from within us changing our very countenance on the outside causing emotional reactions. Satan does just the opposite. He deceives us from the outside influences making us emotional first and then we think we burn from the inside. You wrote this: "I recall controversy at a Pentecostal Church - I know of this because I am related to the person who had to go in and resolve the conflict - having close relatives of the Cloth. Two members speaking in tongues in the same issue came to different - and contradictory conclusions. The Church divided on one side or the other." So, logically, it's possible that there are FOUR positions to contemplate: 1. Both were influenced by the Holy Ghost. 2. Both were influenced by Satan. 3. One was influenced by the Holy Ghost and the other by Satan. 4. Neither were influenced and just came up with their own conclusions. Since they ended up in opposition conclusions, I'd go with number's 2, 3 and 4. Of course, maybe both were influenced by Satan and he just gave them each opposing information and let them fight it out. In fact, I'll go with #2. The speaking in jibberish is Satanic and nonsense. "Speaking in "tongues" doesn't mean a new or different language. It means being able to communicate regardless of whether a person knows the language of the other they understand each other. For instance, acts of love and kindness are languages that all can understand. Listening to someone in a foreign language and yet the Holy Ghost translates the meaning to you. But, the nonsense jibberish, that's all Satan. I know who and what the Holy Ghost is.

I'm liking our conversation. It's informative and stimulating my mind. Gracias. (Do you need interpretation)

 

1) you believe Paul taught works are important - Agreed
2) You believe Pentecostals are heretics - Agreed - as only the Logos was able to command the Holy Spirit . Perhaps it might alight from time to time on a mortal soul .. but not on command - which is essentially what you are seeing
3) did not say it was not the holy Ghost who opened your eyes .. What I did say was one of the claims made - that works is not part of the salvation formulation given by Jesus - is not from the Holy Spirit.

4) where we disagree it seems is on what "Works" are. Jesus talks about helping the poor - not going bad things to others .. it is about how one lives their life. We can go through many passages .. but if you want just one - that would be Matt 7:12

This was stated by one of the teachers of Jesus - Rabbi Hillel - in responding to a challenge by an uninitiated to sum up the Torah in one sentence. Hillel responded - Don't do to others what you hate - the rest is just commentary, now go and learn.

Matt 7:12 aka "The Golden Rule" is the rock on which Jesus bases his teachings. " So in everything, do unto others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

Jesus restates this rule numerous times in different ways - to make sure folks "get it" in his most famous Sermon on the Mount. Judge not, Log out of own eye, love neighbor as self .. and my fave which is not in this sermon .. "Let ye without sin cast first rock".

James - Brother of HeyZeus - calls this the "Royal Law" .. and guess what .. So does Paul - so no need to pit one against the other.

Now go and Learn

 

I don't think we are that far off after we've gone through this long distant discussion. James was right if we understand what "works" are. Not works of the Law of Moses but the change that is made within us to reveal the Law of Christ as we build our faith. Paul is correct as well. We think Paul and James were at odds but not really. Now go forth and serve

 

Right - Jesus did away with levitical law - but he did not do away with the commands. Gay folks are welcome in God's kingdom - after all God created them that way.

 

So there's no value in a Christian marriage? It's no different to a marriage between two Satanists?

What the hell? You don't know what your own church stands for? You don't have to "SPEAK" for the church in order to know what its position is on certain things.

Well I would argue that sexual intercourse is inherently connected to whether or not the sperm reaches the egg! Before contraceptives,
I can't image that people were able to have as much sex, given the risk of pregnancy.

You don't believe it is what?

Perhaps, but it doesn't change the fact that Adam's marriage to Eve was perfectly in line with God's intention for what marriage should be, as laid out in Genesis.

How is that relevant? Polygamy in the Bible contradicts God's intention for what marriage should be, as laid out in Genesis.

I'm not talking about the Garden of Eden. I'm talking about God's intention for what marriage should be, as laid out in Genesis.

So all someone has to do is be a member? What if they think that it's all a bunch of nonsense, but they remain in membership to please their family and so that they can get married in the church?

 

As I said, we are getting closer. I don't believe for one second God made us defective by making us desire unnatural acts breaking the commandment of not doing homosexual acts. Why would he create you to sin? Sin is a choice, not predestined behavior. Same-sex attraction is learned. Sometimes through the environment they are in. Perhaps they were molested. I knew a young lady that stated quite clearly she was heterosexual until she was raped. Now, men repulse her and women don't and she's attracted to women. I've known quite a few men and women that this is the case. The percentage is probably very high. Now, are Gay folks welcome into heaven? Sure! Just like heterosexuals are. Paul was caught up in a vision and saw the 3rd or highest heaven where our Godhead resides. He stated clearly that there are three levels of heaven in 1st Corinthians chapter 15. So, which level of heaven will people be assigned to after the judgment day? The 3rd or Celestial Glory will take all the ordinances of salvation to be performed, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, baptism....keeping the commandments while they were on earth to the knowledge they had about them. Father in Heaven will know if someone who didn't have the knowledge or opportunity to know the commandments they need to keep would have had they had the opportunity. Accepting the Gospel in its fulness in spirit prison will be a key so we can perform the ordinances in service for them. So, whether heterosexual or homosexual, they will be required to keep the same commandments if they live in the same time period under the same law. Today, as it was in Christ's day, a couple must be legally and lawfully married in a heterosexual marriage. Whether heterosexual or homosexual, sexual relations outside the bounds of marriage and not repenting of these things will disallow one's entrance to the Celestial Glory in heaven because they were not valiant in their testimony of the Godhead's commandments. But, there is the 1st and 2nd heavens or glories that they may reside for eternity in. Knowing that they could be with their families in the Celestial Kingdom of heaven.

 

You improperly expanded my statement. There is a difference between marriage and sealed. Marriage is for time only. Sealings are for eternity. To be sealed, it starts with being baptized. To be sealed, it takes a testimony of the sealing and several steps along the way. Yes, members go to the Temple for the wrong reasons. But, more go for the right reasons. And, if they go for the wrong reasons, they will have to account for it at the judgment seat.

 

So you don't believe that it is breaking a commandment if it's for a selfish reason such as employment?

Between one man and one woman.

That's adultery, not polygamy.

I'm not rejecting what happened there, I'm just rejecting that it has anything to do with God's intention for what marriage should be, as laid out in Genesis AFTER the account of the Garden of Eden.

 

As I said, we are getting closer. I don't believe for one second God made us defective by making us desire unnatural acts breaking the commandment of not doing homosexual acts.

1) No .. this is where you are dead wrong .. 100% .. defacto - and demonstrably so. Your first claim is proven false simply on the basis of answering the question "If God wanted to, could he have created a being that did not Sin." If your answer is Yes .. you have contradicted yourself.

Cougarbear: God did create 3 beings without sin. Adam, Eve and Christ. Christ is the only one that did not sin. Adam and Eve transgressed the commandment not to eat the fruit of that tree. But, by doing so, they also kept the other commandment to multiply and replentish the earth. They were punished for breaking the first and blessed for the second. A Savior was provided for them and their children for all generations to come. Adam chose to keep the first commandment and by doing so prevented them from keeping the second commandment. Eve, chose to keep the 2nd commandment by breaking the first commandment. Eve had more faith in God that God would forgive them and provide a way to overcome their transgression of eating the fruit. The key is both had the free moral agency to choose. Once out of the Garden, they would sin but were provided direction to still be able to have their sins in the world forgiven through Chirst. As for Jesus Christ, he too had the right to choose as well. He was tempted but knew how to perfectly avoid sinning. So, your question or hypothesis that God could have created a being that could not sin is false. This would go against the very nature of God that made him God, free moral agency to choose good or evil. His Plan of Salvation for his spirit children always included free moral agency. So, my answer is "No." Therefore, I have not contradicted myself. However you now have. We were born into this world with natural desires of procreation once we are old enough to be accountable for our decisions and old enough to procreate. It's because of the transgressions of Adam that the world no longer would be peaceful giving opportunity for us to choose between good and evil. And this is part of God's plan. To create a world where we learn to develop faith or not and use it to choose good over evil. Pleasure or pain, virtue or vile, heterosexual or homosexual.

2) there is no "Command" against Homosexuality .. There are the Commands - and then there is Levitical Law.

Cougarbear: Now you are just mintzing words. Leviticus 18:22, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind. It is abomination." "Thou shalts" are commandments pure and simple. He was talking to men when he gave this commandment through the Prophet. This coincides with Romans chapter 1 as well. End of story. Slam dunk.

 

Cougarbear: What was laid out in Genesis for marriage after expulsion from the Garden? Are you reading between some lines or something?

 

1) No man on man sex is not one of the 10 commandments - aka "the Commands" - Jesus did not violate "The Commands" - he violated Levitical Law - and the "man on man sex" prohibition is in Levitical Law.

2) Since you grant that God had the ability to create an entity that did not sin - and claim that this same God created humans - then clearly God chose to create sin in some humans .. and not in others.

While I agree with the idea that there was a plan .. this does not change the fact that it is "God's Plan" .. and as per his Plan he created men who desire men instead of women .. and women who desire women instead of men .. and everything in between.

Get it, Got it, Good.

Now as far as rationalization of why God would create such a human - it would be rather pointless to create nothing but autonomous robots doing everything God willed .. or perhaps monotonous is a better word - least not if God wanted a little excitement from time to time - and God seems to like excitement ..just looking around at creation and all.

Your commentary on Adam and Eve was completely made up - and that is fine, but it makes no sense in the context of what the people that wrote the story believed. This is a very ancient story - one that all people in the near east believed - in one variation or another , but I will not dwell on how nonsensical it is to put a 2cnd millennium spin - on a story dating back to 2500 BC at least .. and likely much earlier.

God knew the outcome of the trial prior to setting down the gauntlet .. it was a rigged fight .. 2 humans - completely innocent and trusting - not even knowing of the existence of evil .. against a the greatest deceiver - with Godlike powers.

To then punish Adam and Even - for something God did to them - something God made them do - would be to turn God into a tyrant .. and I am not willing to do that.

 

You refused to understand the most important point I made. Free moral agency to choose good or evil So, your rant that God created persons he could manipulate is completely wrong. By his own decree, free moral agency is the most important part of the creation of the universe for the benefit of God's children. Thus, Adam, Eve and Jesus Christ all had their free choices to make. A Plan has to have a goal and a beginning. The goal is to bring to past the immortality and eternal life of man (God's children) through free moral agency by learning to choose faith in Christ. The beginning was Adam and Eve placed on earth in the Garden with some directions and a couple of commandments. Adam had faith that God would provide a way to have children if they would not eat the fruit. Eve understood that God provided them the way through the tree of knowledge and partook of the fruit in order to multiply and replenish the earth with people. Adam, not wanting to be left alone man in the Garden, ate of the fruit so that man may be. The transgressed the law and were banished to the lone and dreary world where they would continue to be tested of their faith since they no longer had physical or spiritual connection with Father and Son. They learned they must choose good based on their faith in God. The Holy Ghost and the Light of Christ were provided to assist in faith building. Prophets were called to give guidance to those commandments God required for eternal life through faith in the Messiah, Jesus Christ. Same for today as well. Adam and Eve were perfect when they left the Garden. Perfectly heterosexual. From that point on, God did not make a single human being. Women became co-creators with Heavenly Father by supplying the physical body for our Heavenly parent's spirit children, us. Our spirit bodies are made of finer material than our physical bodies. But, they are perfectly heterosexual. Just as Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. Now, as time as moved on from Adam and Eve, our physical bodies are still perfect but subject to the ills of the world both physically and spiritually. All to test our Faith in Christ. In which I'm passing but you are failing. We are all perfectly heterosexual. But, by individual choice, a small portion of our population for whatever ungodly reason has turned away from God and decided to have base desires upon those of the same sex. Completely unnatural. Sinful for sure.

A couple of comments. Yes, there is no reason that there should not be stories about Adam and Eve prior to Moses. Adam passed down to them what they knew to their children and their children and so on. Adam and other prophets taught the people about the Garden of Eden as well. However, as what usually happens when apostasy hits a population, doctrine and information get's skewed and changed. So, the stories of other civilizations aren't going to be exactly the same.

So, what did God actually do to Adam and Eve? He made them the father and mother of all living human beings. It's why we call Adam, father Adam. The father of our human race. The very two persons in which Adam is actually Michael, the arc angel, came to the earth from their spirit heaven to get the ball rolling. They came full well knowing what was going to happen and they covenanted to by faith do what was necessary for the rest of us to come to the earth with a plan or test of faith to see if we would keep the commandments when given to us by faith in God and in Christ. We too also covenanted and accepted our descension from heaven to gain our physical bodies regardless of our time and place on earth. We actually knew before coming what our fate and position would be like but came anyway because we had faith and believed our Father in Heaven and his Son, Jehovah (Jesus). This is the reason why you say what you say. You have no firm foundation in doctrine and truth. So, you blame God for everything that goes wrong. When it's the people that are free to choose good or evil that makes things go wrong. We really can't blame Satan either. He cannot take away our right to choose. The devil can tempt us but not make us do anything. I feel sorry for those that don't have the fulness of the truth because they reject revelation, prophets, apostles and try to tell others what is a commandment and what isn't without a testimony of where laws and commandments of God come from.

 

You ignored my post in particular the part where I addressed your "free moral agency" point ...

Then go on to accuse me of something I did not say .. making no sense -and completely avoiding the point which was that God created beings that he knew would sin ..

What part of that "Truth" is not getting through. .

 

As in, only have sex with one woman at a time?

What happened to "I'm sure they were married as well?" Now you're saying that they definitely WERE married?

Genesis 2:24:
That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.

Then repeated by Jesus:

Matthew 19:5:
For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.

 

You can have sex outside of marriage by having sex while unmarried.

 

But you did say it when you called god a deceiver and thug. A meanie.

 

Thank you for again pointing out what I've posted already. This also proves that God made us heterosexual only. He did not marry Adam and Steve or Eve and Mary.

 

I have not called God that - you are mistaken .. and what God are you referring to ? and in relation to what ?

I am not responsible for how the OT depicts YHWH - don't blame me for saying "YHWH" is depicted as such and such.

I don't believe these things about "God" - You do.

 

No, God's intention for marriage is at odds with your definition of marriage as including polygamy.

As in, only have sex with one woman at a time?

What happened to "I'm sure they were married as well?" Now you're saying that they definitely WERE married?

 

No I don't. You are mistaken.