Christianity and the Old Testament

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by ARDY, Jan 21, 2017.

  1. Guno

    Guno Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The very words of the ten commandments clearly tells us that the commandments and Torah were for the Jewish people ONLY

    1. God never brought the gentile ancestors out of Egypt! Ex 20:2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery."
    2. The Lord has not given gentiles the promised land of Canaan! Ex 20:12 "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the Lord your God gives you"
    3. Since the Sabbath is a sign between God and fleshly Israel, there is nothing requiring non-Jews to keep it! (Ex. 31:13,17; Ezek. 20:12, 20)
    4. If it was intended for all mankind, then why specifically say "strangers within your gates". Obviously the Gentiles (strangers) were never required at any point in earth history to keep the Sabbath or the law

     
  2. Guno

    Guno Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Jesus Did Not Fulfill the Messianic Prophecies
    What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? One of the central themes of biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of God. (Isaiah 2:1-4, 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34)

    Specifically, the Bible says he will:

    1. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
    2. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
    3. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
    4. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world – on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).
    If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be the Messiah.

    Because no one has ever fulfilled the Bible's description of this future King, Jews still await the coming of the Messiah. All past Messianic claimants, including Jesus of Nazareth, Bar Cochba and Shabbtai Tzvi have been rejected.

    Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming. Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright; in the Bible no concept of a second coming exists.

    http://www.aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html

    This also addresses the lineage issue
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2017
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  3. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Exactly true...and sometimes we forget. Though gentiles were never "under the law", the law is a good indication of what God requires for us to live a Holy life. It makes us aware of our shortcomings. When we accept the Grace through the provision of Christ and what He is done, it is gratifying to see us gradually come closer to fulfilling the law. That is not to say we could ever fulfill it on our own. He has done that for us.
     
  4. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    It seems that you are not familiar with Jeremiah 8-22 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah34:8-22&version=MSG;CEV;CJB;NLT;NKJV. The rule was that the Israelites had to free fellow Israelites held in slavery after six years. At one time they did do that. Then they decided that it was foolish to let free labor go so they enslaved the former slaves once again. That ticked the God character off because the Israelites had broken a solemn covenant. The God character then cursed the people with destruction.

    So it seems that at least in this instance the God character did get at least some of it. The people could hold people in slavery but for only a certain period of time. Then they had to release them (at least the Jewish slaves).

    According to the Jewish Babylonian Talmud every Jew will have 2,800 Gentile slaves in the afterlife. They won't get released after six years.
     
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  5. Interaktive

    Interaktive Well-Known Member

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    In the old testament it is written that the Messiah will come when all wars are stained. Jesus is a false Messiah.
     
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  6. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    According to the Jewish Babylonian Talmud every Jew will have 2,800 Gentile slaves in the afterlife. They won't get released after six years.

    Wow.. who knew?
     
  7. Guno

    Guno Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    the christian bible: luke16:26
    “If any man come to Me and hate not his father and mother, and wife and children, and brethren and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.
    ASV
    If any man cometh unto me, and hateth not his own father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

    MATTHEW 10:34

    Think not that I am come to send peace on earth. I came not to send peace, but a sword.

    Hardly the messiah
     
  8. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Because the OT bible is a record of various myths and fables that prove god's great works. Without the story of the OT, Christ's daddy would have had to be a new god with a new story, not much leverage there.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2017
  9. Guno

    Guno Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    both hitler and stalin where brought up Christians in fact hitler was never excommunicated by his church

    stalin at the age of 15, he enrolled at the Orthodox Seminary of Tiflis, to which he had been awarded a scholarship.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_of_Joseph_Stalin




    Hitler's anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education. Christian Austria and Germany in his time took for granted the belief that Jews held an inferior status to Aryan Christians. Jewish hatred did not spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years. The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself, held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion. In his book, "On the Jews and their Lies," Luther set the standard for Jewish hatred in Protestant Germany up until World War II. Hitler expressed a great admiration for Martin Luther.


    "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

    -Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)
     
  10. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    Bullshit. Women were permanent slaves. They could own non-Hebrews as property. And if a male slave who was Hebrew all he had to do was give this man a slave wife, have babies and then simply wait if the man was truly in love for his wife and loves his children and wanted to stay he could surrender his freedom for life to stay as property. And if he left the wife and children got to stay a sum game for the Master anyway. And children born into slavery were also property. Property he or she if a woman owned them could beat as long as they didn't die in one or two days or lost an eye or a tooth, so flogging them with a whip was fine and rodding them or slugging them in the guts or slapping or raping of a woman slave. This was before any failures by the Jews. So monstrous slavery is monstrous slavery. EVIL. God condoning this was as bad or worse than so called good Germans who knew the Jews and others were being slaughtered and did nothing in fact worse he could have done something just say No One should own other people and treat it as the same as murdering them a death sentence. And make sure it was clear. This was not indentured servitude which I also have issues with that is a contract between adults, with a period of work and always some benefits when you end the service usually in the American Colonies men would get land and a donkey and help building a home and a woman could at least expect marriage to a freeman and usually some clothing and other needs. And they had clear rights as well you for example couldn't beat an indentured servant and any action required a hearing before a magistrate to punish them in any significant way. How is that anything like this system in the OT?

    And what kind of idiot is this god the OT is failure after failure after failure. Why not be open all the time and show his presence, talk to people, invite a relationship and do good things for doing good things inviting worship by demonstrating your a worthy good being and if someone opts not to and gives a good reason like all creatures are equal so I choose not to worship you but respect you for being a good being then its simple. Or be honest if he demands worship then scare me into kneeling with clear evidence as to some horrible consequence, some benefit for groveling and again not hide behind smoke and mirrors. In what real world case do you have a relationship with another without proof of their existing, clear communication and open honesty not mystical mumbo jumbo.
     
  11. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I understand most unbelievers equate Christianity with organized religion. I do not. If you notice, I didn't even use the word. No matter what you say, Hitler and Stalin were not followers of Christ. If Hitler was, his self published Bible, "Mein Kamph" would have put Christ at the fore front. Even Constantine used Christianity for political purposes. As did Hillary and Obama. Followers of Christ put Jesus at the center of everything. Your examples definitely do not.
     
  12. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    I should write a book about all of the versions of the afterlife and their rewards and punishments.

    People always ask why the biblical god didn't say that slavery was wrong. Well, if he had then each Jew wouldn't get 2,800 Gentile slaves in the afterlife.
     
  13. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    Chill. The God character in the Bible was simply the series of men who ruled the dominant Middle Eastern empires at various times. What makes you believe in a celestial deity that gave a camel flea about a small ancient Middle Eastern group of people?

    Look at it like this: One emperor said that the Jews could own each other under certain conditions. Later on another emperor issued an EO that said that they couldn't. The people ignored him. He got ticked off and threatened them with destruction. He died. The next guy had more important things to worry about. So slavery continued for thousands of years. The preferred slaves became black Africans.

    Everything political that happens on this planet happens as a result of one person's decision to make it happen. In ancient times people considered that person to be "God".

    Consider slavery in three countries in the Western Hemisphere.

    Mexico abolished slavery in 1829 just as the first president of partial African ancestry (Vicente Guerrero) is elected. Mexico wouldn't allow American blacks into the country until 1936 because American racists wouldn't allow it.

    The US fought the Revolutionary War to keep its slaves. And then it fought the Civil War because the slavers wanted to expand slavery. It didn't abolish slavery until December 18, 1865.n And then it implemented a century of Jim Crow laws.

    Brazil didn't abolish slavery until 1888.

    So Mexico and Brazil abolished slavery because their leaders said to do it. The US fought to keep its slaves because the slavers refused to to follow the national leaders. The same thing happened in the biblical examples.
     
  14. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    The Bible promises that the Gentiles will become slaves for the Jews.

    Isaiah 14:1-2 (CEV) = " The Lord will have mercy on Israel and will let them be his chosen people once again. He will bring them back to their own land, and foreigners will join them as part of Israel. 2 Other nations will lead them home, and Israel will make slaves of them in the land that belongs to the Lord. Israel will rule over those who once governed and mistreated them."
     

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