Christians, did Yahweh create evil?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by crank, Apr 12, 2015.

  1. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    I would like to know what you guys believe. If you don't mind, could you also provide your opinion on why he created evil - if indeed your answer is yes. I understand the 'free will' argument for evil, but given this god can create universes, it seems an oustandingly clumsy and cruel method of achieving an end. Therefore, I'd like to hear alternative theories on why. Cheers, and thanks in advance.
     
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  2. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    I guess none of you know, then. well this is interesting.

    perhaps some atheists might like to chime in?
     
  3. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    According to the bible, God created everything.
    Evil is the punishment for Adam and Eve eating the apple from the wrong tree.
     
  4. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    so he DID create evil. interesting that some theists maintain he didn't. why?
     
  5. Anders Hoveland

    Anders Hoveland Banned

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    I say yes.

    Just look at how God sent his son to die on the cross. It was horrendous. God, or likely even Christ himself, could have prevented that from happening.

    Why didn't God create everyone to be good?
     
  6. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Yahweh allegedly planned it all before he even started creating it. And some Christians maintain he did not create evil, but never explain why or how that works when you simultaneously claim he created everything. Shoelaces!

    No idea why the judeo-Christian myths involve a god which deliberately designed 'flawed' beings. One can only surmise for his own weird enjoyment.
     
  7. Anders Hoveland

    Anders Hoveland Banned

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    Perhaps some philosophical insight on this can be gained from the Hindu perspective. The Supreme Being created maya (illusion) which ties people to earthly things and is very difficult not to become entrapped in. The Hindu scriptures make very clear that the Supreme God is not all "good"—at least not by our definition of good—and has inherent personality characteristics that encompass the whole range of values observed in earthly reality.

    For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways, says the Lord.
    For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.
    Isaiah 55:8-9
     
  8. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    To the first - I can see no possible point in gods as frail of character as we are. Clearly, such gods are the inventions of man.

    To the latter - a god which really is 'higher' would not need to say it out loud. and if we've been deliberately designed not to know intuitively that such a god is 'higher', and would require an interminable and preposterously convoluted series of awful hints such as blood sacrifices and genocide and baby dashing in order to even remotely suspect, then this god is either a lunatic, or as human as the hindu gods.
     
  9. IAF_Commander

    IAF_Commander New Member

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    The reality has a destructive force and a Creative force.
     
  10. JP Cusick

    JP Cusick New Member

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    Yes of course God created evil, and humans simply fail to understand evil for what it really is.

    In fact it would be rather complicated for anyone to give a definite definition of evil with specifics.
    See link here = Catholic Encyclopedia ~ Evil

    The problem actually is told in the Garden of Eden where the people first ingested the poisoned knowledge of good and bad (mistakenly translated as "evil") because humanity is still possessed of that same poisoned knowledge today and so people judge evil as being "bad" and as "not good" and that is wrong based on the poisoned knowledge.

    God created evil because evil has its point and purpose in this life, and evil is neither "bad or good", and we need to stop judging it by those concepts.

    I really love the posting #7 where the view from the Hindu is given as that is just so true.

    You ask why did God create evil? and if we just go by the Bible to give THAT reason then the Bible tells that God first created a different kind of spiritual life (call them as Angels or Spirits or whatever) where they did not have any physical suffering, so there was no violence as we humans have violence, and the spirit life had a close and realistic connection to the Father God, but then after a long period of peace then the Spirits became defective by their vanity as some of them (one third - they say) decided that they wanted more and as their vanity grew into open rebellion there started a type of war in the Spirit world which consisted of hostilities extreme but no violence and no death because the Spirits could not do violence without a physical body and they could not die. So the story goes that the Father God or Creator Yahweh decided to make (to procreate) a new physical life form (humanity) to become the rulers over the rebellious Spirit life, and in order to achieve this then the humans had to know about real suffering and had to experience real violence and had to understand death, because the Spirits were oblivious to those things.

    And so the answer to your question as per the Bible = the evil is needed in human life in order to prepare us for our later coming rebirth into the children of God to rule over both the Spirit world and the physical universe.

    That is NOT my own story, and anyone may believe it or not, but that is a paraphrase interpretation of what the Bible tells to be the reason that God created the profound depth of evil in humanity.

    This is also why Jesus had to suffer and die a very cruel death because the Savior had to defy and overcome the violent evil.
     
  11. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    How about what happened after? Was that horrendous too?

    Of course He could. What's your point?

    Because He wants volunteers, not conscripts.
     
  12. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    do to the fact that God does some evil things in the bible, would it not be fair to assume he is also made out of evil as well as good

    vengefulness, ego problems and jealousy are three bad traits that this God is claimed to have

    sure there are some women out there that have some ex's with those same problems.... I would think a God would be better then that.... but that is just me

    .
     
  13. Qchan

    Qchan Banned

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    What evil things did God do?
     
  14. GraspingforPeace

    GraspingforPeace Well-Known Member

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    Infanticide, set down archaic and immoral laws, genocide, collective punishment, punishing children for the actions of their parents, etc.
     
  15. Qchan

    Qchan Banned

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    Well, God never punished children for the actions of their parents nor vice verse. Because Ezekiel 18:20 says, "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."

    And Deuteronomy 24:16 says, "“Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."
     
  16. GraspingforPeace

    GraspingforPeace Well-Known Member

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    Yes, good job pointing out that the Bible contradicts itself.

    And what is original sin if not a punishment for what Adam and Eve did?
     
  17. Qchan

    Qchan Banned

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    Seems like you misunderstood that verse. In fact, the text says quite clearly they represent "those who hate Me." In other words, these children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren hate God and have followed their fathers into idolatry. So, there is a good reason for God's punishment. The verse is really an admonition for parents. Children will follow in your footsteps—whether you do good or evil—based upon your actions, but not necessarily your words.
     
  18. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    If he COULD, why didn't he? Once again, the free will argument is a bust (see my next point).

    A volunteer does something without fear of punishment or hope of reward (other than perhaps a fleeting warm glow). A god who genuinely wanted volunteers would not issue threats or dangle carrots, but would simply say 'your choice, and I'm okay with whatever you choose'. If human beings can demonstrate enough love for each other to say those words, why can't the inventor of love do it?

    As it stands, saying "if you don't worship me I will see that you're tortured for eternity" is possibly the very worst example of an entity encouraging free will/volunteerism that I can imagine.
     
  19. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Seems like you twisted the clear contradiction to suit your purposes. I'm assuming that purpose is to do everything you can to avoid making your god look bad. Unfortunately he's done such a fine job of it himself that nothing you (or any other desperado) can do will change that. In the meantime, we will keep reading the yucky bits out loud, as often as possible.
     
  20. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    All those things that if done by any other entity or being, you would call deeply evil. And no, having a specific title (Yahweh, god, whatever) doesn't exempt the entity from judgement, any more than does the specific title of those whom you'd condemn for doing the same things. If it's okay for your god to kill innocent babies en masse, it's okay for other gods to do the same, right? Where does your moral line in the sand lie?
     
  21. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    so HUMANS fail to understand, but somehow you do?

    I'm not interested in what the bible says, but in what Christians believe. If that's an interpretation of scripture so be it, but I prefer your own version. In this case, yours is pretty complicated. I imagine you're aware that this sounds awfully like someone trying to explain away the reason for god being so entirely human? Because all this good/evil/preparation/yada yada is VERY human. Worse, it's human as per the primitive "I don't know where the sun goes at night" variety. The "there must be gods making everything happen, especially death" variety.

    Your last sentence sealed it. You've come up with a way to justify (entirely unconvincingly, it must be said) the completely berserk idea that a universe creating god would PLAN to have things go wrong with his creations, which would then require him to sacrifice himself to himself, knowing all the while that it wouldn't change a thing (just as he'd planned).
     
  22. GraspingforPeace

    GraspingforPeace Well-Known Member

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    The Numbers verse says NO such thing. ALL it says is that the sins of the father will carry onto the next generations. And the Deuteronomy verse doesn't say "those who hate Me", it says "the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me"

    OF those that hate me. "the children of those that hate me" and "those that hate me" mean completely different things, why I doubt you didn't know. Again you cherry pick to make it seem like the verse is saying something completely different. Finally, let me point out that you not only avoided confronting the Numbers verse, but you also ignored my comment about original sin.
     
  23. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    I noticed that, too.
     
  24. cupid dave

    cupid dave Well-Known Member

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    Once you understand that Reality is what was meant by "god," you can understand how things which are evil for man exist as do things which are good.

    Truth is our savior against evils like bad weather, since we must store up food to prevent starving.
    It is the same for other evils, as every doctor understands and uses medications when necessary.
    Truth is the savior for people who sanely live in Reality, as they ought.
     
  25. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    that is recorded history
     

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