Christians To Become As Numerous As The Stars In The Sky? Yes!

Will Christians become as numerous as the stars in the sky and as numerous as the grains of sand on the seashore? Yes! (See Hebrews 11:11-12)

Does these three Bible verses teach that Christians are now and will be in the future
few in numbers? No!

(A) Luke 12:32's "little flock"
(B) Matthew 7:14's "only a few find it"
(C) Matthew 22:14's "many are invited, but few are chosen"

I think not. Why?

Because there are well over 2,000,000,000 Christians in the world
.and 2 billion Christians cannot be a "little flock" or only a "few".

There are over 16,000,000 Southern Baptist in the United States. Sixteen million
Christians cannot be a "little flock" or a "few."

There are over 1300 mega-churches in the United States with weekly attendance
over 2000. That many Christians cannot be a "little flock" or just a "few"`


Anticipated objection:

"Those people up there are not true Christians."___John SmallChurch

My reply to John SmallChurch:

It is absolutely impossible for you to know for certain that they are not true
Christians. You do not have the power or the authority to judge the hearts
of other people. That's just a fact and its an absolute fact. Only God has the
power and the authority to judge the hearts of people and to know if they
are, or are not, true Christians.

I say all this, John SmallChurch, in the spirit of love and kindness.

Remember this. You, like all Christians, are imperfect. You are not sinless.

Therefore any one of those 2 billion Christians could look at the imperfections
in your life and they could say about you, what you just said about them, namely
that you are not a true Christian. So the conversation can end up like this:

Bob: I am a true Christian, but you Tom, are not a true Christian.
Tom: No Bob, I am a true Christian, but you are not a true Christian.
Bob: No Tom, you do not meet my standards for being a true Christian.
Tom: No Bob, you do not meet my standards for being a true Christian

_____


I plan to consider these 5 biblical passages regarding the HUGE-ENORMOUS numbers of the Christian Church.

(1) Genesis 22:15-18 with
(2) Galatians 3:6-9 with
(3) Romans 4:16-17 with
(4) Hebrews 11:11-12 with
(5) Revelation 7:9-10

Meanwhile this thought:


"As of the year 2015, Christianity has more than 2.3 billion adherents, out of about 7.5 billion people. The faith represents one-third of the world's population and is the largest religion in the world, with the three largest groups being the Catholic Church, Protestantism, and the Eastern Orthodox Church."__wiki

______


Clearly, Christianity is not now a "little flock" and it is impossible to interpret the Bible as teaching that the Christian Church is always going to be a "little flock." When was Christianity a "little flock"? Answer: It was a "little flock" at the time the Lord Jesus spoke the words of Luke 12:32. At that time there was probably less than 300 Christians in the entire world of the 1st century. The Christian Church is not a "little flock" now and will never again be a "little flock."

So?

So clearly these verses . .

(A) Luke 12:32's "little flock"
(B) Matthew 7:14's "only a few find it"
(C) Matthew 22:14's "many are invited, but few are chosen" . . .

. . .are NOT predictive of the future of the numerical size of the Christian Church.

Note: This thread is ONLY on the subject of "Christians To Become As Numerous As The Stars In The Sky? Yes!" and is NOT on the subject of Christian Eschatology. My Opening Post and this thread is limited to the proposition that the Christian Church is NOT now and will never again be a "little flock" or "few" in numbers.

 

cont . . .
Genesis 22:15-18

"The angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time and said, "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."


Note the particulars:

(1) "I will make your (Abraham) descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore"

(2) "through your offspring all the nations on earth will be blessed."

 

Genesis 22:15-18

God said to Abraham, "indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore . . . and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed."

(1) stars

(2) grains of sand on the seashore

(3) all nations of the earth shall be blessed through Abraham's descendants. In Romans and Galatians and Hebrews the New Testament teaches that the Christian Church is the spiritual children of Abraham. More about that later.

Meanwhile:

How many stars are there in the universe? If you google that question, you'll get something like this:

"Multiplying the number of galaxies, which is about 2 trillion, by the 100 million stars in a galaxy suggests there could be about 10 raised to the 20th power stars in the universe."

That would be trillions and trillions of stars.

 

Please consider these 5 biblical passages regarding the present and coming HUGE-ENORMOUS numbers of the Christian Church.

(1) Genesis 22:15-18 with
(2) Galatians 3:6-9 with
(3) Romans 4:16-17 with
(4) Hebrews 11:11-12 with
(5) Revelation 7:9-10

Start quote.
"So also Abraham "believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. Galatians 3:6-9
End quote.

In Galatians 3:6-9 Paul teaches that those who have faith are the children of Abraham. (The children of Abraham are therefore the Christian Church.)

In Genesis 22:15-18 God said to Abraham that he would make his descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as numerous as the sand on the seashore. (millions)

So?

So Genesis 22:15-18 clearly CONNECTS with Galatians 3:6-9

So?

So the numbers of the Christian Church (the children of Abraham) will be as numerous as the numbers of stars in the sky and as numerous as the sand on the seashore.(millions)

So?

So the following verses cannot be applied to the numerical FUTURE of the entire Christian Church . . .

A) Luke 12:32's "little flock"
(B) Matthew 7:14"s "only a few find it"
(C) Matthew 22:14's "many are invited, but few are chosen"

Those verses up there (A), (B), (C) CANNOT be given a historically PREDICTIVE interpretation.

They MUST be interpreted ONLY as describing the numerical conditions of the first century in which they were written.

If you interpret them to refer to the FUTURE numbers of the Christian Church then you have created a contradiction. between Genesis 22:15-18 and Galatians 3:6-9 (and other Bible verses too)

Again the ONLY proposition of my Opening Post and follow-up posts is that the numerical size of the Christian Church is NOT now, and never again will be, a "little flock" or "few" in number.

 

Now add Revelation 7:9-10 which says that there is a great multitude of the saved from every nation, tribe, people and language and they are so numerous that no one can count them.

So?

So these verses . . .

(A) Luke 12:32's "little flock"
(B) Matthew 7:14"s "only a few find it"
(C) Matthew 22:14's "many are invited, but few are chosen"

. . CANNOT be given a historically PREDICTIVE interpretation. They ONLY describe the small numbers of Christians who lived in the first century.

 

Now consider Hebrews 11:11-12 and Romans 4: 16-17

Hebrews 11:11-12 says that from Abraham came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore. This is a NEW TESTAMENT verse that says clearly that the Christian Church is NOT going to remain a "little flock." or just a "few".

Abraham's descendants have been clearly identified as the Christian Church in the verses up-post and down-post.

Then add Romans 4: 16-17 that teaches that "Abraham's offspring" is the Christian Church and says clearly that "He (Abraham) is the father of us all."

So?

So there is no POSSIBLE way to interpret . . .

(A) Luke 12:32's "little flock"
(B) Matthew 7:14's "only a few find it"
(C) Matthew 22:14's "many are invited, but few are chosen"

. . .as being historically PREDICTIVE of the FUTURE numbers of the Christian Church.

Conclusion:

The final numbers of the Christian Church will be as numerous as the stars in the sky and the sand on the seashore.

The Christian Church is NOT now and will NEVER again be just a "few" or a "little flock."

 

"I will build my church and the gates of Hades will not overcome it" ___The Lord Jesus in Matthew 16:18 NIV

Note the phrase "I will BUILD my church" Does not this phrase and this verse clearly suggest that the numerical size of His church will not forever be a "little flock" and only a "few"? My view is that the Lord Jesus could not successfully BUILD His church if it forever remained a "little flock" and only a "few" in numbers?

_______


Then consider the Lord Jesus's Great Commission at the end of Matthew's gospel chapter 28.

Start quote.
"Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Matthew 28:16-20
End quote.

Note the particulars:

(1) The Lord Jesus told His disciples to go and make disciples of ALL the nations, teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

(2) The Lord Jesus explained that they were to do this because He NOW had been
given all authority in both Heaven and on Earth.

(3) This "all authority{" that the Lord Jesus NOW has both in Heaven and on Earth is the reason why His disciples would be successful in making disciples of ALL the nations.

So?

So Matthew 28:16-20 clearly teaches that the Christian Church will not forever remain a "little flock" and only a "few" in numbers?

My view is that it would be impossible for the disciples of the Lord Jesus to successfully make disciples of ALL nations teaching them to obey the commands of the Lord Jesus --- and at the same time the Christian Church remain only a "little flock" and only be a "few" in numbers?

So?

So regarding the Opening Post and all my follow-up posts in this thread, I conclude that the proposition "The Christian Church is NOT now and will NEVER again be just a "few" or a "little flock{" --has been established as true.

 

People are walking away from organized religions in droves.

Exodus: Why Americans are Leaving Religion—and Why They’re Unlikely to Come Back
https://www.prri.org/research/prri-rns-poll-nones-atheist-leaving-religion/​

 

* God and "organized religion" are not the same thing.

* You don't know that they are without God and without the Lord Jesus
Just because they are walking away from organized religion, does not
automatically mean they are walking away from God and the Lord Jesus.

* The Holy Spirit has direct access to every human mind and heart 24/7/365
everywhere on the planet. You do not know what He does with that access
or how He uses it.

* Many Christian theologians have correctly said that people can experience
the Lord Jesus, in principle, without the actual content of the Bible.

* Think about that!

* In principle.

* You don't know that this, in principle, is not true.

* Think of water. A Small Stream leads eventually into a Huge River.

* The Small Stream is water just as the Huge River is water.

* The water is the truths of the Bible.

* The Huge River is ALL the Biblical truths.

* The Small Stream is only a small part of the ALL ie. "the light they do have."

*The Small Stream is not the "full light" of ALL the Bible.

* But if they obey "the :light they do have" -- then they would
also obey the "full light" if they had it.

* If they obey the "small part" they would also obey the "ALL",
the Huge River.

* The Holy Spirit can, therefore, save any human being anywhere
in the world because they have "in principle" obeyed the "light that
they did have" even thought they did not have "all the light" ie. did
not have the Huge River -- but only the Small Stream.

* In other words water is water whether it is a "Small Stream" or the
Huge River.

* The so-called "Nones" are not necessarily in the Camp Of The Non-religious.

* They may not fully understand the Bible, but that can mean no more than they
do not fully understand the Bible. Read that again.

* We have no knowledge of what takes place in the secret minds of human beings.

* We can't use polls to tell us about people's true spiritual condition.

* Polling is nothing more than a snapshot of the moment.

* Pew Research cannot predict the future 10 years hence . . or 20.

* Pew Research cannot know what is in the secret places of the human heart.

* Read this next point carefully:

* Billy Graham made an interesting statement:

"I think that everybody that loves or knows Christ, whether they are conscious
of it or not, they are members of the body of Christ ... [God] is calling people
out of the world for his name, whether they come from the Muslim world, or
the Buddhist world or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body
of Christ because they have been called by God. They may not know the name
of Jesus but they know in their hearts that they need something they do not
have, and they turn to the only light they have, and I think that they are
saved and they are going to be with us in heaven." "___Billy Graham
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Graham#Ecumenism
_________

* I don't know that Billy is correct.
* I do not say that he is.
* Neither one of us can know.
* But I do know that God loves humanity.
* And that He is Merciful and Gracious.
* And that He has a Plan to save the Human Race.
* He will not allow His "Human Race Project" to be defeated.
*Those people that check the box None {the Nones} are not
automatically in the atheist-camp. If you read those Pew
Research Polls carefully they explain that the "Nones" are
NOT saying they are atheists ---rather they believe in some
kind of Higher Power

This below is typical of what the "Nones" actually believe:

Start quote.
"For all the (digital) ink spilled in the coverage of nones over the past
couple of years, there are some complexities in the data on nones
that are often missed in both public reporting and religious
handwringing about the “decline of religion in America.” First,
we should bear in mind that the majority of nones—nearly 70
percent in the 2012 Pew data—report that they believe in God,
a higher power or a transcendent life force of one sort or another.
A scant 3 percent of the population identify as atheists, the
proportion of the unaffiliated that has grown the least since 2007."
End quote.
https://www.americamagazine.org/issue/gospel-according-nones

* So nobody knows what is actually in the secret places of the minds
of the so-called "Nones."

JAG

Scot me up Beamy.


``

 

Is it possible for you to have a conversation without proselytizing?

 

Hello.

You keep mentioning "proselytizing."

proselytizing - the action of attempting to convert someone from one religion, belief, or opinion to another.

I present my views.
You present your views.
Everybody presents their views.
Its not possible to write posts and not present one's views.
If presenting one's views is proselytizing, then all who write posts are proselytizing.

Then there is this:
There is noting wrong with proselytizing.
If you do it in the right way.
I never try to force my views on anyone.
I put what the Bible says in front of people.
I put my views in front of people.
You do that too.
They can choose to ignore our views or to consider our views.
Let me give that a shot with you.
Here is something I am going to put in front of you:

___________________________________________________
Start quote.
If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love,
I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all
knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but
do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the
poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,
but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast,

it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking,
it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does
not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects,
always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will
cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where
there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part
and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes,
what is in part disappears.

When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a
child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put
the ways of childhood behind me.

For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we
shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall
know fully, even as I am fully known.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love.
But the greatest of these is love"___1 Corinthians 13
End quote.
__________________________________________

* Did you read that?
* You could have just ignored it.
* If you read it, I did not "twist your arm", did I? No.
* I did you no harm by putting the New Testament's
great Chapter On LOVE in front of you.

________


How about this:

“I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.
"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such
times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to
decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”
___J.R.R. Tolkien

And this:
__________

“PIPPIN: I didn't think it would end this way.

GANDALF: End? No, the journey doesn't end here.
Death is just another path, one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all
turns to silver glass, and then you see it.

PIPPIN: What? Gandalf? See what?

GANDALF: White shores, and beyond, a far
green country under a swift sunrise.

PIPPIN: Well, that isn't so bad.

GANDALF: No. No, it isn't.”
___J.R.R. Tolkien
__________________

Is that up there me proselytizing?


JAG


Scot me up Beamy.


```

 

Say, your post gave me an idea for a new thread:
http://www.politicalforum.com/index...s-nones-are-they-really-non-religious.574953/
Many thanks.


Thought For Today:

"The secret things belong to the LORD our God,
but the things revealed belong to us and to our
children forever, that we may follow all the
words of this law."___Deuteronomy 29:29

Best.

JAG

 

So, what do you call what you're doing? You are using bible quotes for what reason?

 

I'm not surprised.

You're welcome.

 

A more accurate term would be Data Dump TROLLING!

The purpose of the forum is to be able to engage in "vigorous respectful debate" however when every post is OVERBURDENED with utterly IRRELEVANT pablum it becomes impossible to engage in any form of meaningful debate.

Since this pattern exists in ALL of the OP's posts it is patently obvious that he is either not interested in any actual debate or is simply trolling the forum as a means to waste bandwidth and storage.

The TLDR response applies to everything he posts so the latter is more likely to be the primary motivation IMO.

 

Thanks for explaining it. I was lost. I'm not prone to headaches, but... ;-0

 

You are welcome!

FYI in future when you respond to someone's post click on the "Reply" on the lower RHS and that will automatically quote the relevant post for you and notify the member that you have replied to them.

PS, thanks for joining the forum.

 

Thanks for the tip.

I appreciate your comments. Well done!

 

I meant to ask you if I did this correctly? And, what is the purpose of the "+quote" option?

 

What part of this below did you not understand?

JAG Previously Wrote To MJ Davies:
"You keep mentioning "proselytizing."

proselytizing - the action of attempting to convert someone from one religion, belief, or opinion to another.

I present my views.
You present your views.
Everybody presents their views.
Its not possible to write posts and not present one's views.
If presenting one's views is proselytizing, then all who write posts are proselytizing.

Then there is this:
There is noting wrong with proselytizing.
If you do it in the right way.
I never try to force my views on anyone.
I put what the Bible says in front of people.
I put my views in front of people.
You do that too.
They can choose to ignore our views or to consider our views."___JAG



``

 

Which part didn't you understand?

"So, what do you call what you're doing? You are using bible quotes for what reason?"

 

If Christians believe that then it proves they have no faith in Jesus as messiah.

 

I believe this to be true ... so the assertion made by the OP is wrong on two levels.

 

No.
There are around 100 billion stars in our galaxy alone.
There may be 200 billion galaxies out there.

There just aren't enough people on Earth for Christians to ever outnumber the stars.

Thread completed...next question?

 

To answer your question with additional explanation:
I have always used Bible quote and Secular quotes
at the end of many posts with the motive to make
some measurable amount of contribution to the
life of the reader of the post and to any readers
who may come along and read the thread at a
later time.

I try to select quotes that I think are likely to be
interesting to the reader --- much like posters
use a Siggy under their posts --- only mine are
not static, but are selected at different times.

You have the following as your Siggy.

"Apathy and inactivity breed doubt and hesitation. Action creates confidence and vigor." - Ralph Marston

"In a racist society it is not enough to be non-racist. We must be anti-racist." - Angela Y. Davis

Are you proselytizing with those quotes?

proselytizing - the action of attempting to convert someone from one religion, belief, or opinion to another.

I don't think you are.
So?
So neither am I proselytizing with my quotes.

If you are not proselytizing with your quotes, then
why do you think I am proselytizing with my quotes?

_______

I gave you the following Bible quote:

JAG Wrote:
Thought For Today:

"The secret things belong to the LORD our God,
but the things revealed belong to us and to our
children forever, that we may follow all the
words of this law."___Deuteronomy 29:29

How on earth can you possibly think that I am
proselytizing merely because I call your attention
to a Bible verse that makes the point that there are
some secret things that only God knows.

Best.

JAG


``