Christians To Become As Numerous As The Stars In The Sky? Yes!

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by JAG*, May 22, 2020.

  1. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    My God is not too small :) Unfortunately however - it is many segments of Christianity - and certainly the Bible - that makes God small.

    You say "God Created the Universe" - and had some plan. I say - God IS the Universe - and everything that is unfolding is part of God - the good - the bad - and the ugly.

    There may be many lesser Gods - as the Bible says - perhaps one is conducting an experiment on earth and other planets -and checks in from time to time.

    Suppose the experiment is not going how the God had envisioned - the people are not doing as God had hoped. Does God intervene - or let the experiment run to completion.

    Perhaps these humans will manage to conquer space - make it to other worlds.

    I say God lets the experiment run to completion and does not intervene. There is no point in doing the experiment to begin with if you are going to alter the result.
     
  2. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone
    among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself.
    I am the LORD."___Leviticus 19:18 NIV


    "The foreigner residing among you must be treated as
    your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were
    foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God."
    __Leviticus 19:34 NIV



    ``
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2020
  3. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  4. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    In Judasim. The Golden Rule is Judaic philosophy. As a Jew, Jesus simply carried on with what he was taught. He was, after all, a Jewish prophet ... not the Messiah.

    Judaism is tolerant of other religions ... neither Christianity nor Islam both of which believe that followers of any other diety will go to hell.

    On the "Golden Rule"
    Once there was a gentile who came before Shammai, and said to him: "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot. Shammai pushed him aside with the measuring stick he was holding. The same fellow came before Hillel, and Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it." - Babylonian Talmud, Shabbat 31a

    Hillel: 110 BCE, died 10 CE
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2020
  5. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    Oh yeah. I got it. Same old same old.
    Okeee.

    Thanks for your comments.
    I was hoping for a mind-connection.
    Alas this is the Internet.
    I should have known better than to hope.
    Oh well, at least I enjoyed writing my sci-fi-y post
    to you.
    Thanks for the brief exchange.

    JAG

    Scot me up Beamy.


    ```
     
  6. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    That's some funny stuff to be sure.

    I think it was One Mind That Asked:
    Where in the O.T. was the golden rule taught? Just curious.
    The Jews were known to not love their. enemies but to kill
    them..The OT is full of that.

    I need to see the evidence."___One Mind
    ______________________

    And JAG Answered His Question With:
    'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone
    among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself.
    I am the LORD."___Leviticus 19:18 NIV


    "The foreigner residing among you must be treated as
    your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were
    foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God."
    __Leviticus 19:34 NIV

    ____________

    And you come along and post a graft about the decline of
    religion in America.


    Scot me up Beamy.



    ```
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2020
  7. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Never saw that in the laws of hamurrabi.


    But I just checked and it appears in Leviticus..If the Jews practiced it enemies or the tribes they killed were exempt. Lol

    It isn't a part of Buddha's 8 fold truths that I can recall.

    I know little of Confucius so you may be right.

    I know it isn't in Hinduism..

    But if Christ and the father are One, then god invented that rule first seen in Leviticus and Christ just repeated it.

    Humanity has no use for it though. It must be against human nature.
     
  8. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  9. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    No kidding?
    Really?
    That is old very old news.
    It is hoary with age.
    by the way , , ,
    Thank you for your charts and grafts.
    They add so much to the thread.
    Please post some more.
    Do you have some cartoons mocking Christianity?
    If so put 'em up here.
    This is the Internet.
    The "shock value" is these days way down low.
    That means I just glance at them and then they pass into oblivion.
    I mean you see that kind of stuff all the time in threads on the Internet. Yawn
    Its just one Big Long Drawn Out Yawn.
    Actually not even that.

    JAG

    Scot me up Beamy.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2020
  10. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

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  11. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    Aw come on you can do better than that.
    That's not very deep.
    That's not a profundity.
    Wearing a shirt with "Jesus Saves" on it has zero to do with the "Separation Of Church And State."
    Wearing a shirt with "Jesus Saves" is not forcing a single thing on anybody.
    Just as wearing a shirt with "Go Nike Go" is not forcing anybody to buy Nike shoes.
    Now if the shirt said "I Am Against The Separation Of Church And State" then you'd have a point.
    But as it is, you don't have a point.
    Try something else.
    Look around the web you can do better.
    Your friends may be watching.
    Impress them..

    JAG

    Scot me up Beamy.


    ``
     
  12. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is a fact that the Bible - the OT in particular - minimizes God - in just the way you were describing. Why does this disturb you ?

    Do you not like the idea that God might be the universe ? This idea connects to yours directly - you just don't get the connection.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2020
  13. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Google is your friend - Buddha, Confucius cited this rule, and it can be found in Hamurrabi's law code - the lex talionis.being one example.
     
  14. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    i must have misunderstood your point.
    Please re-explain.
    I described God as the God-Of-The-Hubble-Deep-Field
    by which I meant that He was Bigger than the human mind
    can comprehend. There was nothing minimal about my
    description of God.

    But please Do take the time to re-explain what you mean.
    I will read whatever you write carefully.

    I do not like the idea.
    My view of God is that He is a Person, just as you & I are persons,
    except God is of course the Supreme Person.
    I even started a thread on that here at PF.
    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...ughts-on-man-made-in-the-image-of-god.572845/

    JAG Wrote:
    _________________________________________________
    I interpret the "image of God" in Genesis 1:27 to be as follows:
    `
    (1) God has an Intellect --- man has an Intellect.
    `
    (2) God has a Free Will (volition) --- man has a Free Will
    `
    (3) God has Emotions --- man has Emotions.
    ________________________________________________


    I am "all ears."
    Please explain the connection.
    ___________

    By the way, did you find my "sci-fi-y post" a little bit interesting?
    What were its pro's and con's if any?

    You're a "numbers kind of guy" --- I think the following
    will, at some future point, occur:

    JAG Wrote:
    _______________________________________________________________
    "I do know one thing. The God that created this Universe thinks BIG and I mean
    BIG as BIG OFF THE CHARTS. So? So its very reasonable to believe that He has
    Plans for His Human race Project that will be incomprehensible to the present human
    mind. With regard to the number of future humans in the Universe , , ,

    , , , after we reach the one trillion to the power of one trillion number , , ,

    , , ,let's move on to 999 trillion to the power of 999 trillion. Now that is still
    thinking way to small. How so? Because you do know how big the known
    Universe is. I say the KNOWN Universe. Just think of the size of the UNKNOWN
    Universe.___JAG
    __________________________________________________________________

    999 trillion to the power of 999 trillion is a cool number, isn't it , , , LOL , , ,
    ie. the number of people needed to inhabit the UNKNOWN Universe
    which for all I know is infinite?
    Edit: By "unknown" I mean the part of the Universe that we believe is
    there, but have never actually seen with our most powerful scopes.



    JAG



    ```
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020
  15. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not according to the facts :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:

    Canada
    In Quebec, over 500 churches (20% of the total) have been closed or converted for non-worship based uses. In the 1950s, 95% of Quebec's population went to mass; in the present day, that number is closer to 5%.

    Chile
    Cases of sexual abuse, attempt to hide information, and interference of the Catholic Church in government matters have been the main causes of the decline of Catholic Christianity in Chile. The number of Chileans who declare themselves Catholics fell from 73% in 2008 to 45% in 2018. According to the Bicentenario survey, atheism has grown from 21% in 2018 to 32% in 2019.

    Netherlands
    Starting in 1880 and accelerating after the Second World War, the major religions began to decline among the Dutch. In 1971, 39% of the Dutch population were members of the Roman Catholic Church; by 2014, their share of the population had dropped to 23.3%

    In 2015, Statistics Netherlands found that 50.1% of the adult population declared themselves non-religious.

    In December 2014, for the first time, there are more atheists (25%) than theists (17%) in the Netherlands. Currently, the majority of the Dutch population is agnostic (31%).

    In 2015, 63% of Dutch people think that religion does more harm than good. The number of people reporting that they never pray rose from 36% in 2006 to 53% in 2016.

    Spain and Italy
    Adherence to established forms of church-related worship is in rapid decline in Spain and Italy, and Church authority on social, moral and ethical issues has been reduced.

    United Kingdom
    Attendance at Anglican churches had started to decline in the UK by the Edwardian era, with both membership in mainstream churches and attendance at Sunday schools declining. The UK experienced a further decline in infant baptisms after World War II. In 2014, Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams stated that the UK had become a "post-Christian country." That same year, only 4.3% of the population participated in a Church of England Christmas service.

    United States
    In 2016, Christians represented 73.7% of the total population. In 2019, Christians represented 65% of the total population, while those who identified as "no religion" or "unaffiliated" rose to 26% of the total population. Nationwide Catholic membership increased between 2000 and 2017, but the number of churches declined by nearly 11%. The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) lost about 30% of its congregation and closed 12.5% of its churches: the United Methodist church lost 16.7% of its congregation and 10.2% of its churches. The Presbyterian Church has had the sharpest decline in church membership: between 2000 and 2015 they lost over 40% of their congregation and 15.4% of their churches. Infant baptism has also decreased; nationwide, Catholic baptisms are down by nearly 34%, and ELCA baptisms by over 40%.

    In Minnesota the Catholic Church has closed 81 churches between 2000 and 2017. In roughly the same time frame, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America in Minnesota has lost 200,000 members and closed 150 churches. The United Methodist Church, which is Minnesota's second-largest Protestant denomination, has closed 65 of its churches. In the early 1990s, the Archdiocese of Chicago closed almost 40 Catholic churches and schools. The Archdiocese of New York announced in 2014 that nearly 1/3 of their churches were merging and closing. The Archdiocese of Boston closed more than 70 churches between 2004–2019.

    Moderate and liberal denominations in the United States have been closing down churches at a rate three or four times greater than the number of new churches being consecrated It has been asserted that of the approximately 3,700 churches that close each year, up to half are unsuccessful new churches.




    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_Christianity_in_various_countries
     
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  16. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If you say God is omnipotent and omniscient - as in "God is everywhere and is in control of everything" - then God is the Universe.

    Is God not part of the universe and if so or even if not - If God controls the entire universe - then God is the universe - as everything that happens is a function of God directly - not as some indirect result of molecules bashing together because God stepped in a puddle.

    Everything that is - everything that your perceive - is a function of God if you assume God created the Universe - and is in control of that creation .. being everywhere and all powerful - in complete control.

    I didn't say that you minimized God - I said that the Bible minimizes God - and that one of your hypothesis minimizes God.

    If you reduce God to a Person - you are minimizing God. When you add in human characteristics and emotions - many of which are nasty - you reduce God further. I call this "putting God in a box" - and that is what all religions do.

    It is not that some of the guesses are wrong - some may well be correct - but - if there is a possibility that the guess is wrong - God is put into a box.

    The early Christian Church struggled with this question in trying to figure out the nature of Christ's divinity - was he half man/half God - subordinate to the father - or was he part of the Godhead - and so on. 300 years later - Jesus was transformed into God - fully God - but at the same time "not God".

    The Father was something different - and even in the Trinity they took great pains to distance God "The Father" from "human" - make the mistake of putting "the Father" into a box.

    To the Greeks there were 2 types of substances - that which God was made of - and that which everything else was made of. When Constantine insisted on insertion of the word "homoousios" into the Nicene Creed - this was saying that Jesus was "of the same substance" as God = Jesus was fully God - and yet at the same time "not God"

    You see they are avoiding putting this other God ... this "Not God" entity into a box - and correctly so.

    I am not saying that the contradiction of the Trinity makes sense or is resolved by this - just that at least they made the effort not to put God into a box - at the time of the creation of the creed.
     
  17. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    I want to say thank you for taking the time to write that up for me.
    I appreciate you doing that.

    I read ever word carefully.

    We live in different worlds.

    My view of the Universe is that it is composed of:
    ~ matter
    ~ time {units of measurement between events}
    ~ space {units of measurements between objects}

    God is a Person and not matter, time, and space.

    God is a Spirit {I do not know what a spirit is -- and most likely will not know in this life}
    I cannot comprehend God.
    Yet I know enough about God derived from simple child-like faith to understand
    a simple proposition --- like the one found in John 3:16 which says choose between:
    {1} Eternal Life
    {2} perish

    My view is that God is NOT part of the Universe.
    God does control the Universe but God is NOT His creation {God did not create Himself}
    If God is a part of His creation -- then God DID create Himself.
    That'd be irrational to believe that God created Himself.

    God is obviously a Person {with an Intellect and Emotions and a Will-Volition }
    ~ intellect - created a fine-tuned Universe
    ~ emotions - created human love, sympathy, empathy
    ~ will-volition - decided to create a fine-tuned Universe and human love etc

    We don't have to intellectually figure out concepts like the Trinity and Christology {the two natures of Christ , , ,Human and Divine}
    Deuteronomy 29:29 "the secret things belong to God, but the things revealed belong to us."
    The Bible was given to us to achieve 2 basic goals:
    {1} tell us how to have Eternal Life and escape Death
    {2} tell us how to live after we receive the gift of Eternal Life {while we wait for physical death the gateway to Eternal Life.}

    You are greatly concerned with not putting God in a box.
    You mentioned that several times.
    That is important to you.
    That's a good thing.
    That can lead to better things.
    After all, who wants God in a box? Not me.

    The Trinity is not a contradiction.
    We just don't understand it.
    We can't. There is nothing in our experience that is comparable to it.
    We MUST hold that God is One God, yet manifest in Three Persons
    because that is how the Bible presents Him. I mean if we take the Bible
    seriously we have to hold that it must be read Trinitarian.

    You say that all religions put God in a box.
    You have a personal conception of a God that is not in a box.
    But on your lights God is not a He, right? Not a Person?
    You'd say God is an "It" wouldn't you?
    The Universe is an "it" -- a thing. Matter.

    I read your post 3 times trying to find a "point of contact."
    You know where "minds can meet."
    Alas I drew a blank.
    I'm glad you believe in God. I guess.
    Question: Do you pray to the God that is not in a box?
    Do you ask for "His" help?

    When I think about God and the Bible , I think of verses like
    John 3:16 and this one:

    "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your
    own understanding, in all your ways acknowledge Him and
    He will He will make your paths straight." Proverbs 3:5-6

    ________

    "May the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ, and the love of God,
    and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."
    1 Cor. 13:14 NIV
    ~ Father
    ~ Son
    ~ Holy Spirit

    ________


    Thanks again for your comments.
    Maybe we can chat again soon.

    JAG

    Scot me up Beamy.


    ``
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020
  18. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You do know most of what Buddha taught was only attributed to him by the later organizers of both mahayani and Hinayana Buddhism.. What he did teach us were the 8 truths. That is the core teachings . That could lead to enlightenment. And the end to perpetual rebirths and suffering. Entering Nirvana that is not heaven but emptiness... At least not the christian heaven. Buddhism isn't a religion.

    The once atheist Sheldrake the English biologist moved to India to help in agriculture to increase food crops. He worked with Hindus and it was astounded that Hindus didn't believe in helping the poor or adhering to the golden rule. Why? Because Hindus believe one's lot in life was karma and it is the fault of the poor. So helping them was not their business. So stay out of it and let karma work. Sheldrake was shocked.

    With Buddhists they are not concerned with morality. No laws. But when the mlego is extinguished , that event naturally produces right living. No moral law is needed. As one emminient Buddhist priest said...the conflict between right and wrong is a sickness of the mind. This is alien to Christians.

    I prefer Taoism of Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu. Mixed with the golden rule. And some Gnosticism, mysticism.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020
  19. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The history of Buddha is not the point - it is just one example of the golden rule being used throughout history. Way off track we are.
     
  20. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Except I don't think it was a tenet of Buddha. Never read it in any sutra or teaching...for the reason that I stated. Buddhism sprang from Hinduism. They share some ideas like enlightenment and transcending the illusion of the ego.

    Show me where the Buddha taught the golden rule. Since he was the founder as Christ was the founder of Christianity.

    I only ask for it because I studied Buddhism, Hinduism, and Taoism back in the early 70s while attending college. And never were any of these were known for teaching the golden rule. Instead the position of Buddhism was expressed as...the conflict between right and wrong is a sickness of the mind. The morality came from enlightenment and not adhering to a moral law.
     
  21. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    First thing that came up when I googled it

    " hurt not others with what pains yourself.” (The Buddha, Udânavarga 5:18, trans. 1883:27). These selected quotations illustrate the moral principle, known as the Golden Rule, that we ought to treat other people as we want to be treated (Wattles 1996_"
     
  22. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Wrong, we live in the same world. This is why we can communicate. You may be pretending to live some fantasy world but you are in the same one as I.

    Believing & conducting your life in a fantasy prevents man from achieving his full potential and those who spread pretend fantasy (such as fundamentalist moslems and “god-fearing” Christians) stifle man’s progress in understanding life. This is why you “cannot comprehend god” as you say here below.
    That is a contraction. Persons, matter, time, and space are real while god is a fantasy. For the sake of this dialogue let us call this god-fantasy a “conspiracy theory”.
    I know what spirit is. It is fantasy.
    “Being a Humanist means trying to behave decently without expectation of rewards or punishment after you are dead.”
    - Kurt Vonnegut
    God is part of man’s creation, fantasy and superstition rather than logic and sense … and the inability to accept that what is - but yet unexplained. This again is the consequence of creating fantasy and superstition.

    “Here we are, trapped in the amber of the moment. There is no why.”
    - Kurt Vonnegut
    “In the beginning, God created the earth, and he looked upon it in His cosmic loneliness.

    And God said, "Let Us make living creatures out of mud, so the mud can see what We have done." And God created every living creature that now moveth, and one was man. Mud as man alone could speak. God leaned close to mud as man sat up, looked around, and spoke. Man blinked. "What is the purpose of all this?" he asked politely.

    "Everything must have a purpose?" asked God.

    "Certainly," said man.

    "Then I leave it to you to think of one for all this," said God.

    And He went away.”

    - Kurt Vonnegut


    “Faith” is not in believing fantasy. “Faith” is in observing and accepting both the explained and the unexplained and relying upon the assumption that all will be revealed at a later date. Life is a garden within which are to be found tasty fruit and bitter ones.
    - Thingamabob
     
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  23. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    People are made of matter and space - not time. Do you not see the contradiction here ?

    We do not know what a spirit is - and we do not know that God is spirit. The Bible does not describe God as spirit. .
    Jesus is not described as Spirit either.

    The author of John described Jesus as "The Logos" - the emissary between man and God. Jesus spoke Gods word through the Holy Spirit. The depiction of the Spirit is akin to the Gnostic concept of an an emanation from the Godhead.

    Unfortunately - modern Bibles deliberately mis- translate the word "Logos" substituting the word "Word"


    You describe God as a force - one able to control the universe - how is this force not then part of the universe ? This makes no sense - and nor does it infer that God created himself.

    Just because something has the human emotions you describe - does not make that entity a person. We find some of these emotions in animals and animals are not people.

    This is simply not true. These concepts do not exist in the OT. You can claim that Jesus was sent for purpose 1 - no idea where you are getting 2 from ?

    Jesus tells us that salvation comes through good works.



    The Trinity is a man made concept - given to us by a Pagan Emperor for political purposes.


    My conception of God is simply that God is the universe. Jesus says that to find God - do not look outside but inside.
    I am aware that this puts God in somewhat of a box - but not really.

    I do not claim that God has this characteristic or that characteristic - like religions do. That God wants this or Gods want that - as I do not know the mind of God - and neither do the folks that wrote the religious texts.

    Does God detest alcohol - as some religious groups suggest - or does God not detest alcohol. This is the box I am referring to.
    This is also known as "Speaking for God" - what I believe is what Jesus referred to as the abomination of desolation - the one unforgivable sin.

    Jesus was the Logos - the emissary between man and God who spoke God's word through the Holy Spirit. When Constantine and later the popes declared "Pontifex Maximus" This was usurping the position of Jesus. It is Jesus who spoke Gods word through the Holy Spirit - not the Pope or Constantine who gave us the modern Trinity Doctrine.
     
  24. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    The subject of my statement which you quoted and responded to
    was the Universe and not people.
    JAG Wrote:
    My view of the Universe is that it is composed of:
    ~ matter
    ~ time {units of measurement between events}
    ~ space {units of measurements between objects}___JAG
    _____

    Thanks for your post up there.
    I will get to it as soon as possible.

    Little bit later , , ,

    JAG
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2020
  25. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit
    and in truth."___John 4:24
     

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