Climate change. We get it ... it’s a mess you don’t want to think about.

I don't care about "targets" that they have no intention of achieving... What have they ACTUALLY done, to date?

 

Well, a country that is currently $30 trillion in debt (with $169 trillion in unfunded liabilities) is spending a shitload of money on this...

 

This is where I disagree with your view on this subject.

I don't see any reason to believe that the Earth is warming (this is a problem relating to mathematics, as we don't have near enough thermometers to measure the temperature of the Earth to any reasonable accuracy). In short, any attempt to "measure Earth's temperature" either is, or is based on, pure guesswork that doesn't follow the requirements of statistical mathematics.

I also don't see any reason to believe that global sea levels are rising (this is, again, a problem relating to mathematics). There is no valid reference point from which to measure a 'global sea level' because land also moves (and even has a tide). You cannot use a reference point that moves.

 

You know I really really really get sick and tired of the "invisible problem" excuse

"But Muuuuum! How can I clean my bedroom when my bedroom is already clean?"

 

I know I doubt this was from climate change but the timing was too delicious to pass up

 

Fair enough.

 

So you can't explain it in your own words. Not surprised.

 

I'll add my name into the mix here.

Climate is a subjective term that is not quantifiable, and is just a word that is used to describe "weather over a long period of time" (whatever "a long period of time" means to you). There is no "the climate" either. Climate is a hyper localized thing (just as weather is). In fact, within Wisconsin, there is a small area near (ironically enough) Spring Green that is a desert climate (complete with sand, cacti, lizards, etc). --- There is no 'warming' or 'cooling' with regard to climate --- there is just "desert", "tropical", etc... IOW, a description of the prevailing weather conditions in the area.

 

I don't blame you. That's why I prefer other forums that don't have nearly as strict language rules as this one does (where I can say what I actually wish to say). I still use this one though.

 

That depends what your definition of "is" is. It's warming because it is spring in the Northern Hemisphere, which means the overall temperature at the earth's surface is rising because there is more land in the Northern Hemisphere. But temperature has fallen since 2016. But it has risen since the Little Ice Age. But it has fallen since the Holocene Optimum. But it has risen since the last Ice Age. But it has fallen since the Pliocene. Etc. The earth has warmed since the LIA, but 2016 may well have been the high point. I predict that unless the sun gets a lot more active, we will not see the earth getting any warmer than 2016. Arctic sea ice bottomed in 2012. Until and unless it breaks that low, the earth is probably not getting warmer, certainly not enough to be concerned about.

 

Nobody should ever build on those islands in the first place unless they can afford to replace them..

That is not really "land". It is a constantly shifting and moving sandbar. Building on one of those then screaming "global warming" because the houses collapse is like building a house on a sand bar in the middle of the Mississippi River and screaming the same thing when river currents move it a quarter of a mile downstream..

Once again, it shows how illiterate some people are in real science. Sandbars may "seem" permanent, but they are not. Waves erode them, and also build them up. They are not really permanent, they are always moving, north or south, seaward or landward. Depending on what the conditions are at the time. Strong storms can wipe them out in hours, and billions of dollars are spent annually around the world to truck sand and other material to them to keep them from eroding away.

 

That is the only argument she can make.

"Do not believe me? Read a 3,675 page report".

 

So true.

Factually, "Climate Change" makes as much sense as "half a hole".

 

Oh, it is warming, there is no doubt about that.

In the time of George Washington, icebergs were common on the Delaware River. As seen in the famous painting.

Until the early 1800s the Thames froze over regularly, creating long holidays known as "Ice Fairs".

Into the 1930s, Lake Huron frequently froze over from the US to Canada. It was a frequent route for bootleggers to take booze to the US during prohibition.

Around 15kya, New York was covered by a glacier up to a mile and a half thick, and Long Island is the moraine left over when it melted.

During the American Revolution, when Captain Bligh discovered the Turnagain Arm, Portage Glacier ran all the way to the coast. When I first visited it just over 40 years ago, you could still see it clearly from the visitor center. Today, you can no longer see it from the visitor center.

The planet is still warming, although technically we are still in an Ice Age, and it will be thousands of years more until it finally ends. And the seas are going to get a lot higher, we know this from geological records. The belt that allows Palm Trees to survive is now on the west coast at around 37.7 degrees north (San Francisco). Eventually, it will reach above 62 degrees north (Anchorage). Once again, we know this from geological records. Most tundra will disappear from North America, replaced by plains up to the Arctic Circle.

But the majority of melting and warming has already happened. Now we are in a slow phase, as more ice melts, and the air grows increasingly warm and humid. Rainfall will increase, and as the land rehabilitates grasslands and forests will grow.

But we are still in the intermediate area, where the ground has not recovered enough from the dry Ice Age. Deserts will eventually shrink again, as the increased rainfall allows grasslands to encroach back to cover much of them.

But this is a very slow process, and takes tens of thousands of years.

It is not guesswork, if you believe in the science of geology. Where even 50,000 is largely the "blink of an eye". And you can have huge changes like the Medieval Warm Period and the Little Ice Age occur in the same 500 year period. That is not unlike going from 30 degree weather to 110 degree weather within a 6 month period as far as the history of the planet is concerned.

 

For me, I tend to look to geology. Where we can trace the climate going back billions of years.

Where in reality, permanent ice caps at the poles is an aberration and is really only a recent event (the last 45 million years, on a planet over 4.5 billion years old). But in that last 45 million years, glaciations have happened over and over and over again. And most times between them most of the Northern Hemisphere having no ice sheets at all (the oldest is Greenland, at just over a million years old).

So when people try to scream at me about changes in just a few years, I laugh. I take a really long frame of reference, that covers periods of 50,000 years and more. Where the Antarctic was mostly ice free for most of the history of the continent. Which is how marsupials got to Australia from South America, and once there was a lush jungle where dinosaurs actually evolved with unique features to cope with the conditions (both large eye sockets so deal with the long winter nights, and enhanced brow ridges to shade the eyes during the long summer days).

And to put a perspective in the changes in 50 kya, at that time the UK was connected by land to Europe. There was no "San Francisco Bay", the coast was over 20 miles farther to the west.



Eventually most of Florida, and Scandinavia will slip under the seas, as well as a lot of Pacific Islands. Just as Doggerland is now gone, someday they will vanish also.

 

To be honest, I see those little fluxuations as trivial as the difference between one year and the next.

Over the last 30 million years, there have been over a dozen identified ice ages. And in each of them, things eventually warmed to where the Arctic Ice Cap vanished. And remained warm enough for permafrost and tundra to vanish, and palm trees to grow in Alaska. Each and every time.

So if you talk about "warming trends" of a few years, I just laugh. That is as meaningless as what the scare mongers say. I am putting my bets on past geological history. Where things are going to get a hell of a lot warmer. IN the next dozen or so thousand years.

 

Why should I waste my time? If you will not even read the summaries……..

 

It has summaries

 

It DID? Got proof?

https://news.agu.org/press-release/...n-ice-sheet-likely-to-disappear-in-300-years/
https://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/ice-sheets-and-sea-level-in-earth-24148940/
Keep telling you that listening to right wing disinformation sites like RT are going to leave you with the wrong ideas

 

And what is currently causing the warming? Fiery underpants from denialist websites?

 

And once sgain, you have really no idea what news sites I follow, or why. You are making huge mistakes in that statement, if not outright lies.

Why do you insist on making such statements with absolutely no basis in fact? You need to stop projecting your beliefs onto others, I find it rather disgusting to be honest.

 

Gee, how can I say that there is warming, and still deny that there is warming?

Please, stay consistent to your claims. I can not be doing both, that is an outright lie.

How about as I have been saying since this started, in geology.

Tell me, got any proof that the planet was cooler 120 kya? Ever hear of Milankovitch cycles? Do you really think that the planet is warmer today than it has ever been before?

You know, when it was so warm that hippos lived in northern Europe and North America? And seas were around 30 feet higher than today?

Instead of simply screaming lies about me, how about actually addressing the facts? Deal with facts, stop trying to attack others with lies and discuss the things brought up.

This is the biggest reason why I find dealing with the Fear Mongers so frustrating. They would rather lie and toss out insults than discuss the facts.

 

Because you are repeating RW misinformation almost word for word and I have yet to see you link to a site based on the science rather than the talking points. BTW THAT is why I have read the IPCC reports - admittedly not in one sitting but I have read them because they ARE based on not just the science but the best science

 

No I am asking YOU to explain why the warming is occurring. And can you show where earth currently is in relation to the milankovitch cycles? Hint THAT is not the cause of the current warming

what is the current solar cycle? Are we in a minima or a maxima?

What is the current level of CO2?

 

Ipcc on you tube