Conservatives Warming Up to Minimum Wage Hikes; Leftists Cooling

Discussion in 'Labor & Employment' started by rocker65, Jun 23, 2018.

  1. rocker65

    rocker65 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2015
    Messages:
    866
    Likes Received:
    128
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Some people thought this could never happen. Not me. I'd have to go look and see if my pro-minimum wage raise OPs are in this forum, or in past forums that I got kicked out of for being a conservative, and telling the truth about Muslims, Affirmative Action, and immigration.

    In any case, I am again just putting it on the table for everyone to take another look at, especially with some of the rather new perspectives that have arisen on this long, contentious issue. Some posters here (leftist gooneybirds generally) have accused me of being racist, a fascist, a "wingnut", a deplorable, and some words I wouldn't even repeat. Some have said I'm the worst (in their eyes) right-winger in this forum. Well, that's their view. They're entitled to their opinion.

    I just want to put this out here now. A raise in the minimum wage does a few things. But the one thing I, et al conservatives, are thinking about, is the effect it has on immigration. Excess immigration (and we are undergoing that big time) is dangerous to any country. It is ruining America. It takes jobs from Americans. Lowers wages. Reduces sales to businesses. Hurts the economy by remittances$$ losses ($138 Billion/year in 2016), increases crime, and has many other harmful effects. It needs to be stopped on the illegal end, and reduced to only merit immigration on the legal side.

    Liberals are cooling off to MW hikes, because it reduces employers' interest in hiring illegal aliens, thus reducing (if not eliminating) the inflow of them, and their VOTES for Democrats.

    Raising the minimum wage (to $15/hour as a possibility) could punch a hole in illegal immigration, that could knock the hell out of it. Employers want illegals for their willingness to work for very low wages. But with a substantial sized MW, they would be forced to either hire illegals off the books (a risky procedure), or forget illegals, and hire Americans at good wages. Illegal immigration would lose its appeal to illegal employers, thereby helping most US businesses (competitors of illegal employers), who follow the law and don't hire illegals.

    Lastly, there's the case of disposable income. This is the total amount of money that consumers have in a community to use to purchase...anything. This, with a low MW is harmful to businesses because we business owners need money in people's pockets to sell our stuff. With a higher MW, the folks around us have more money to shop, and buy our stuff. Our sales go up.

    I look at this from 2 perspectives. 1) as a former college professor of microeconomics (CUNY) with a rigid set of parameters regarding "the firm" .......and 2) as a former business owner, whereby I found nothing more frightening than a big influx of illegal alien dirtbags, working for the current US MW of $7.25/hour (or less, if they're unreported). And even these low wages mostly don't get into the community's DI, because illegal aliens notoriously send most of their wages back to their home country (remittances$$), thereby depriving US businesses of sales.

    President Trump knows that for US businesses to succeed (in the US), immigration must be reduced, and illegal immigration must be eradicated entirely.
     
    PrincipleInvestment likes this.
  2. PrincipleInvestment

    PrincipleInvestment Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2016
    Messages:
    23,170
    Likes Received:
    16,477
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    More jobs than applicants = higher wages? Who'd a thunk it?
     
  3. rocker65

    rocker65 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2015
    Messages:
    866
    Likes Received:
    128
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Except when illegal aliens are around. Then you have the opposite of that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
    jay runner and roorooroo like this.
  4. PrincipleInvestment

    PrincipleInvestment Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2016
    Messages:
    23,170
    Likes Received:
    16,477
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Naturally. I was speaking more to the futility of artificially increasing wages -vs- allowing the US labor market to make those adjustments freely. Rising wages are a product of surplus job opportunities ... Unfortunately liberal sanctuary policies have created an immigration crisis that threatens to wipe out recent gains. Dems would like nothing more than to see the economy take a nose dive ahead of mid-terms. Stagnant wages is one of the few dog whistles they have left.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
    Seth Bullock, Lil Mike and roorooroo like this.
  5. rocker65

    rocker65 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2015
    Messages:
    866
    Likes Received:
    128
    Trophy Points:
    43
    The lower wages are, the better able unscrupulous companies are to call illegals to them.
     
    jay runner likes this.
  6. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,613
    Likes Received:
    11,200
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Not only wage levels, it also has a huge effect on working conditions.

    A lot of these jobs got turned into jobs Americans didn't want to do, because the working conditions are fast-pace very demanding and brutal. I don't lay all the blame on the business because to some extent they have to do that to maximize productivity and compete with their competitors. But it didn't always used to be quite like that. Many decades ago it used to be 14-year-old boys out in the orchards and picking berries for a little extra money over the summer. And when was the last time you saw a 12 year old delivering a newspaper? There are many places in the country where a teen can't even get in on the lawn mowing business because there's too much competition, from people much older who don't speak English.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
  7. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2011
    Messages:
    10,833
    Likes Received:
    4,092
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I don't think minimum wage hikes are a true solution to rising income inequality because they only benefit the very poorest and don't address the low workforce participation problem and ends up hurting employment.

    A real solution is to require double pay for all work over 40 hours per week. This will mean businesses will need to hire more workers. Next, American labor should be given priority over foreign labor. That means tariffs on many foreign goods to ensure we have a full economy where everyone can participate rather than high unemployment from outsourcing. Restructure higher education funding so that education for in-demand majors are virtually free but wasteful degrees aren't funded. This will prepare our workforce for the jobs of the future, erase the skills gap, and we can stop importing technical talent from India and China. Next, we replace social security, welfare, medicaire, medicaid, and all our other government programs with a simple government program that redistributes income from the rich to the poor and middle class workers so that income inequality is put back to the level it was in the 50s and 60s.
     
  8. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,613
    Likes Received:
    11,200
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Though to some extent, I'm sure higher wages would increase the labor force participation rate.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
  9. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2011
    Messages:
    10,833
    Likes Received:
    4,092
    Trophy Points:
    113
    A higher minimum wage will encourage some people to seek work but at the same time a lot of businesses especially small businesses won't be able to hire as many workers. Also some reasons for a low workforce participation rate is an older workforce, more people in school, and a tough job market from a bad economy, automation, outsourcing, over-regulation, and over-taxation, that is picky and looking for high skill workers causing millions to drop out of the workforce in the recession and never come back.
     
  10. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,613
    Likes Received:
    11,200
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Initially. But then prices will start to go up a little bit, and the businesses will be able to pay their employees more.
    Some economists think that a higher wage could ultimately lead to a little bit more equal societal distribution of income which would raise the amount of money being spent on consumption (thus counteracting the effect of fewer workers being hired at the higher wage). But this isn't an immediate direct effect.

    The reality is what will happen depends on the exact nature of the demand. And we don't necessarily know what that demand-price curve looks like at any particular price.

    For some items, you could double the price and the demand would barely change at all. For other items, a doubling of the price could cut down the quantity demanded by more than half.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
  11. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2011
    Messages:
    10,833
    Likes Received:
    4,092
    Trophy Points:
    113
    :They will go up a little bit, but not by very much. And price hikes also hurts the quality of life and makes things more expensive for businesses to buy. As predicted by enconomists the Seattle $15 minimum wage has actually reduced wages because of hours and jobs cuts. Minimum wage hikes have been tried a lot and they don't fundamentally fix the fundamental income inequality problem for the bottom 90% rather than just minimum wage workers. Those minimum wage jobs are also disappearing as well with automation and a minimum wage is only going to accelerate that. Its better to help the technical jobs of the future rather than low-pay jobs of the past.
    https://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/02/sea...may-have-cut-wages-and-jobs-study-author.html
     
  12. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,613
    Likes Received:
    11,200
    Trophy Points:
    113
    What I am thinking, the burden of the price hikes may ultimately be felt by commercial property owners, and property prices will go down.
    If the business can't pass on the burden to the consumer, it will have to pass on the costs to the venue they're renting from.

    Yes, but you'd be surprised at the number of employed workers earning at or very close to the minimum wage, I think it's like 30%.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
  13. rocker65

    rocker65 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2015
    Messages:
    866
    Likes Received:
    128
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Got to get rid of the illegals. Make America great again. That includes 14 year olds mowing lawns.
     
  14. rocker65

    rocker65 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2015
    Messages:
    866
    Likes Received:
    128
    Trophy Points:
    43
    If you took away Social Security, and replaced it with something that redistributes income to workers,that leaves older Social Secuirty recipients who are out of the workforce with no income. You're for that ?
     
  15. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2008
    Messages:
    39,883
    Likes Received:
    2,144
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Perhaps focus more on why America is so reliant on low wage labour?
     
  16. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,613
    Likes Received:
    11,200
    Trophy Points:
    113
    If you supply an overweight woman with potato chips and chocolate cake, she's going to eat them.
     
    Lil Mike likes this.
  17. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2008
    Messages:
    39,883
    Likes Received:
    2,144
    Trophy Points:
    113
    This is a cretinous effort at humour? There is a reason why America is reliant on low wage labour and it doesn't reflect supply side issue or your extreme right wing attitudes
     
  18. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,613
    Likes Received:
    11,200
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It's an apt analogy.
     
    Lil Mike likes this.
  19. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2008
    Messages:
    39,883
    Likes Received:
    2,144
    Trophy Points:
    113
    See above. Zero comment.
     
  20. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2011
    Messages:
    10,833
    Likes Received:
    4,092
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yeah, well that is more of an end-goal. I'd start gradually tapering off social security by raising the minimum age gradually to 80. Another idea is instead of getting rid of social security we gradually replace it with an investment 401K-like program where everyone pays the same tax rate into the program and you get more put into your account every year if you are poorer since you need it more.
     
  21. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2008
    Messages:
    39,883
    Likes Received:
    2,144
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Why not just redistribute and allow individualism to flourish? Market Socialism 101
     
  22. jay runner

    jay runner Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2017
    Messages:
    16,319
    Likes Received:
    10,027
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Very happy to see that truckers' wages are rising substantially.

    Everything will cost a bit more, but US citizens making a good wage and paying taxes instead of sliding along on the dole is great for the USA.

    Hit me with a price rise, I'll gladly pay more.

    Make it all in the USA.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2018
  23. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2008
    Messages:
    39,883
    Likes Received:
    2,144
    Trophy Points:
    113
    What?
     
  24. reallybigjohnson

    reallybigjohnson Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    8,849
    Likes Received:
    1,415
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Minimum wage is a myth. No one around here pays minimum wage except maybe fast food joints and if you work at one of those its either because your an idiot or you aren't good enought to get another job. Grocery stores start you off at around $11.00, Costco starts at $13.00.

    Once again if you are making $8.50 or whatever the federal minimum wage is you are a ****ing moron and deserve to be paid so little for being so stupid and lazy.
     
  25. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2011
    Messages:
    10,833
    Likes Received:
    4,092
    Trophy Points:
    113
    LOL, until self-driving cars wipe them all out, employers will turn even more to automation rather than pay a lot for American labor. Will you be glad to pay more when you realize that all the other countries are also hiking their tariffs which will unemploy Americans making products for foreign companies and the price hikes from these tarriffs will make American companies less competative globally against foreign competitors? Also we will have less competition in the US because we have local-only will make markets more monopolistic and raise prices.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2018

Share This Page