Cops respond to domestic violence then grab the victim by the neck and throw her to the ground

Discussion in 'Law & Justice' started by ryobi, Jun 18, 2022.

  1. ryobi

    ryobi Well-Known Member

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    Check this one out:

    Neighbors call the police for domestic violence.

    According to the police the woman has an abrasion under her eye.

    She denies she has been assaulted but within 10 minutes of contacting her officer Hernandez grabs her by the throat and throws her to the ground.

    Now she has really been assaulted.

    Texas Code of criminal procedure - CRIMP Art 5.04

    states a call that may involve family violence the police are to protect the victim of domestic violence against any potential domestic violence....the officers have a duty to protect a victim of domestic violence

    Is grabbing a woman by the throat and throwing her to the ground protecting a woman against domestic violence???

    Are these guys the good guys????

     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2022
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  2. ryobi

    ryobi Well-Known Member

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    OK in all fairness

    I have that Scandinavian fairness

    and the police see all kinds of troubling damaging things

    Like children being murdered

    OK i couldn't handle seeing those things

    But throwing a woman to the ground by her throat within 10 seconds of talking to her

    I've lost the statute but yeah i forgot the statute but the police are obligated to protect people who are the victims of self defense

    Is throwing a woman down to the ground by her throat defending a women that is alleged to be the victim of self defense???
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2022
  3. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So a law that was intended to protect the victim, even though she didn't want to be helped, ended up leading to that victim being assaulted by police?
    How ironic.

    Yet another example of unintended consequences, and "the road to hell being paved with good intentions".

    Yes, invade the victim's home and physically bash her to the ground because we are going to help her whether she wants that help or not.

    "Government knows best"

    Don't blame the police officer here. Blame the mentality behind this.

    Maybe if government took a more hands off approach to domestic violence and only assisted women when they wanted to be helped, this assault would not have happened.

    ryobi, you don't see how the Progressive Left is to blame here?

    Something I've noticed, the Progressive Left keeps passing more laws giving police reason to involve themselves in altercations, and then these same people on the Progressive Left get outraged at police when those altercations turn sour. Sounds like unrealistic expectations, as if you're blaming police because they were not able to translate your legal concepts into the perfect realities of what you intended.

    It seems to me half the blame is on you. You didn't realize there could be unintended consequences to all these new laws you support?
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2022
  4. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    this is Texas, did they think she was planing to get an abortion or what?
     
  5. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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  6. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    The one officer may have engaged in excessive force. Using his actions to accuse all other officers of wrong doing is pointless unless the agenda is to piss on all police using this incident as the pretext to do so.

    The woman could have been told to lie by the abuser so the police had to go inside to make sure she was safe. The amount of force used was not shown.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2022
  7. Jarlaxle

    Jarlaxle Banned

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    Hang the bastard.
     
  8. ryobi

    ryobi Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, it seems he conveniently turned off his body cam.
     
  9. ryobi

    ryobi Well-Known Member

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  10. ryobi

    ryobi Well-Known Member

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    Well, I'm not really a liberal.

    If anything, I lean right.

    I'm really neither a democrat nor conservative.

    I joke that I'm a member of the reasonable party. We're like liberals and conservatives, only reasonable

    I mean my last book was about all the stupid things liberals believe.

    The prison industrial complex is a new project for me.

    So, I'm just beginning to learn and think about it.

    But in my community a teacher had an affair with his 18-year-old student.

    He was convicted of a sex crime and had to register as a sex offender.

    I mean, he should have been fired and lost his teaching license, but being convicted of a sex crime and having to register as a sex offender for having sex with an able minded adult?

    The so-called victim probably was not traumatized until the teacher was convicted of a sex crime and the whole affair was blown up
    all over the newspapers. Then she probably was a victim.

    Are these guys the good guys?

    Are they working in the best interests of the so-called victims?

    I went to school in Australia.

    I was in the bushes making out with a woman I met in a club when a policemen came along.

    And do you know what he said?

    He said, sorry mate, and he moved along-lol.

    Imagine if that same scenario happened in America.

    I probably would have been arrested for a sex crime and had to register as a sex offender for the rest of my life for having consensual sex with an able minded adult.

    BTW, I was in Australia for 8 months and he was the only cop I ever saw.

    I'm a surfer and I live 20 miles from the beach and it's not unusual for me to see at least 8 plus police officers on the way to the beach.

    Is America a police state?

    That's the question I'm trying to answer in my next book.

    Is America a police state?

    Are these guys the good guys?

    I mean grabbing a woman, who may have been a victim of domestic violence, by the throat and throwing her to the ground?

    Are these guys the good guys?
     
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  11. ryobi

    ryobi Well-Known Member

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    Well, I'm not really a liberal.

    If anything, I lean right.

    I'm really neither a democrat nor conservative.

    I joke that I'm a member of the reasonable party. We're like liberals and conservatives, only reasonable

    I mean my last book was about all the stupid things liberals believe.

    The prison industrial complex is a new project for me.

    So, I'm just beginning to learn and think about it.

    But in my community a teacher had an affair with his 18-year-old student.

    He was convicted of a sex crime and had to register as a sex offender.

    I mean, he should have been fired and lost his teaching license, but being convicted of a sex crime and having to register as a sex offender for having sex with an able minded adult?

    The so-called victim probably was not traumatized until the teacher was convicted of a sex crime and the whole affair was blown up
    all over the newspapers. Then she probably was a victim.

    Are these guys the good guys?

    Are they working in the best interests of the so-called victims?

    I went to school in Australia.

    I was in the bushes making out with a woman I met in a club when a policemen came along.

    And do you know what he said?

    He said, sorry mate, and he moved along-lol.

    Imagine if that same scenario happened in America.

    I probably would have been arrested for a sex crime and had to register as a sex offender for the rest of my life for having consensual sex with an able minded adult.

    BTW, I was in Australia for 8 months and he was the only cop I ever saw.

    I'm a surfer and I live 20 miles from the beach and it's not unusual for me to see at least 8 plus police officers on the way to the beach.

    Is America a police state?

    That's the question I'm trying to answer in my next book.

    Is America a police state?

    Are these guys the good guys?

    I mean grabbing a woman, who may have been a victim of domestic violence, by the throat and throwing her to the ground?

    Are these guys the good guys?

    .
     
  12. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    There is you know a way to check that out if it happened. It will also be a moot point because of the sheer no. of other body cameras on and pedestrian cell phones as well.

    Now I ask people do you think turning off a body cam when there are all those other officers around makes sense? If anything would not leaving it on protect a police officer from accusations of excessive force?

    What do you mean it "seems he conveniently turned off the body cam"? What second hand comment did you read stating that-can you please share it and can you please remember it is an allegation not a rush to judgement fact even if it later proves out to be true. The fact is you do not know if its true yet and why if it was turned off why it turned off. It seems "convenient" to you because you have a preconceived bias the officer was hiding a wrongful act. How now does turning off one camera turn off all the other cameras? Come on man.

    Your assumption of excessive force and I understand is based on specific preconceived presumptions including:

    1-the subject killed was black therefore the actions were racially motivated
    2-the police in this matter think and behave identical to all police and all police are racists and motivated to kill blacks
    3-the number of shots fired is proof of excessive force.


    The above 3 preconceived biases mean what other than you already have police you want punished.

    If any police engaged in excessive force let's use proper legal evidentiary procedures to prove them guilty otherwise all you are is a lynch mob member screaming to lynch someone.

    Law has to be based on rational objective investigation, not knee jerk anger responses.
     
  13. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    I spent over 20 years investigating and prosecuting sex crimes in Canada in both the criminal and family courts as a prosecutor, lawyer and mediator. Sorry your comments make no sense. If there had been consensual sex between two able minded adults, there is no law in Australia that convicts those adults from having sex as you are damn well aware. For the state to have been involved and someone to have been charged let alone convicted of a sexual offence meant one of the parties was underage and so considered in law unable to consent, or if the adults were of the same legal age one of them did not consent.

    Please do not come on this board and suggest consenting adults are imprisoned in Australia for having sex. Its not done in Australia, my country Canada, the US or any other Western country based on British criminal law.

    Next what does 8 police officers on the beach have to do with anything to do with this thread? You are damn well aware in Australia given the number of beaches and the limit of powers of lifeguards, police are also required on your many beaches because of people who behave indecently, expose themselves, touch people. try kidnap people, pick pocket, rob not to mention gang violence and inebriated people.

    It has nothing to do with Australia being a police state and everything to do with the large beaches available to Aussies to enjoy themselves. Given the size of your beaches, your arbitrary choosing the number "8" police officers means what? How many thousands are on your beaches? Next do you mean to tell me the lifeguards and citizens of your country do not want them there at large public gatherings to help keep people safe? Get real man. They have prevented knifings, people dying, major fights, etc.

    Is America a police state? Well first off it has one of the highest rates of imprisoning people in the world yes. The stats shows that. Whether that makes it a police state is subject to debate but you are also well aware access to owning guns or obtaining guns in the US is far higher than in Australia or Canada. We have different gun laws. That many people owning guns or being able to get access to guns (the US is also the no.1 producer of guns) requires different police operations and considerations. So to compare the US to Canada or Australia not recognizing that difference and population density difference is not going to make for accurate comparison. Some people also have a political bias where they believe any or all government regulations and police make a state a police state. Whether that does or simply reflects their political biases is the question. The same US which imprisons numerous people also has a criminal trial system and constitution to try balance and safeguard individual rights and to assure people are convicted of a crime beyond reasonable doubt. Is their system perfect no-no system is-its it in comparison to China, Russia, North Korea a police state, no. Also remember each state in the US has different criminal laws some more strict than others.

    Next I am only debating you. Some of what you say may be dead on or prove to be dead on.

    Here is what I can tell you from personal knowledge. Everything you have seen appears to have been standard police procedure from what I was trained in and what I know. The one issue was the police officer who was said to have made contact with the woman. I have not seen the tape. I do not know what happened.

    If in fact he grabbed her by the throat that would be assumed to be excessive force IF it was initiated by the officer. If it was INITIATED by the officer there is a problem. The proper procedure would be to have the female officer present make the initial contact and warn the subject and tell her if she does not cooperate she could use appropriate force to subdue her. If the female officer was to initiate force she is trained to grab wrists and bring the arms back behind the shoulder and a male officer could do so on the other arm.

    If there was a struggle they would then be trained to try get the arms behind the person's back and place their legs in between hers to force her on to her knees and stomach and this could include if she is biting placing their hand on her head to push it back or chin and push the chin up until the arm were cuffed and then hold her head downwards if she continued to bite. Also an option is to bend the legs inwords to prevent kicking and if required cuff them and then cuff the bent legs to the cuffed arms while placing her sideways.

    Look I could go into great detail but many of these incidents happen in literally seconds. Yes injuries can happen, most common is a bite, bruising possible dislocated shoulders yes.

    Police react quickly to try prevent escalation of resistance not just to protect themselves but the person from hurting themselves.

    Most people under stress who resist become many times stronger than their size or weight especially if they are on drugs or alcohol or having a psychotic attack.

    So without seeing the tape I can not properly tell you as a prosecutor how I would handle the issue of excessive force yet. I would have to interview the subject subdued, review all possible audio and video tapes. interview each and every officer. Obviously if the officer in question admits he grabbed her by the the throat that in itself is problematic. Its not a standard procedure to subdue. In a life threatening situation maybe.

    That said its premature to say what happened yet. Its tempting to jump to conclusions.

    I can tell you from personal experience I have had spouses badly beaten by their husbands or mates, attack me when they found out I have charged their mate or spouse. I had my nose broken once my a man going to slap his wife in a court room. I have seen men and women of all sizes in prisons, courts and on the street lose it physically. No I can not provide you a one size fits all reaction.

    I can tell you if a police officer hesitates when being attacked he could get himself, his partner or innocent people killed. I can also tell you most people are influenced by what they see in movies and on t.v. What they see is not accurate-to start with the use of guns and violence is not the way its depicted. In real life its much faster or more chaotic.

    I do not condone excessive force. Most officers or court officials do not and we never have.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2022
  14. ryobi

    ryobi Well-Known Member

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    Firstly, thank you for your response!

    Secondly, I am not Australian. I am an American. I studied Applied Molecular Biology in Australia.

    Thirdly, people have been arrested for having sex with able minded adults in the United States.

    For example,

    In 2007, head football coach Todd Hoiness was accused and later convicted of sexual misconduct for an inappropriate relationship with an 18-year-old female student. Hoiness was sentenced to five months in jail and forced to register as a sex offender. He lost his teaching certificate, too.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2022
  15. ryobi

    ryobi Well-Known Member

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    Truthfully, death I don't have what it takes to be a cop but cops could prevent a lot of resisting arrest and violence if they were to say something like I'm handcuffing you behind you back for my safety safety and and your safety rather than saying things like, "put your fvcking hands behind your back," then throwing the person to the ground and doing a choke hold on the person.
     
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  16. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely. Fair statement and many do because that is what they are trained to do. Fair is far. No officer is told to swear like that. It escalates the matter.
     
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  17. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    I can not get full information on what Hoiness was convicted of. It appears by the way he pleaded guilty. Next it appears the conviction he was charged with was not solely dependent on the fact thet student he had sex with was of legal age. Her being of consenting age to the sex was not the factor used to decide his guilt other factors were. To convict someone of a sexual offence with someone of legal age other factors would have to come into play to prove the decision to have sex was non consensual.

    So it would be misleading to conclude that had engaged in non problematic consensual sex simply because the student was 18.

    There were probably other factors involved which I would need to know more about and probably would indicate there was more to it than just the age of consent issue.
     
  18. UntilNextTime

    UntilNextTime Well-Known Member

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    Cops have a duty of care and a level of force needed for whatever the situation. A cop can't shoot someone because they were just holding a knife. The suspect needs to be a threat, such as lunging or running towards the cop. Also with physical acts. If a perp/suspect is being violent and aggressive, tasing or physically subduing the perp would be a better option rather than pop a cap in da a$$. Levels of force are required for the degree of the threat. So a perp getting slammed or smacked to the ground when they've been compliant is not the right thing. Even though they deserved to be. It also can come back and bite the cop in da a$$ and any future court hearing for the perp and the perp get a reduced sentence or get the charges dropped.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2022
  19. Pixie

    Pixie Well-Known Member

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    Oh god.
    It's those Texas police again.
    'Nuff said.
     
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  20. submarinepainter

    submarinepainter Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    My son is a Deputy Sherriff in Franklin County, he says he tries being calm and polite, but drunks are extra hard. lol
     
  21. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    He sub I can't speak for others but when I have been drunk I have never been extra hard. Just sayin. Lol. All kidding aside, hope he is safe. Being a Deputy Sheriff in a sea of guns can't be a picnic and it must make you nervous some days. Respect.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2022
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  22. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    Do you train police? Are you a police officer? Anyone can come on a thread and pose as an expert on police training and tactics.

    What will be considered excessive force inappropriate for any given situation depends on a wide range of factors, indicators, triggers and with due respect police training and operations manuals are far more complex then the pat responses we all engage in when we think we see inappropriate force.

    Comparing an unarmed civilian in the scenario of this thread's original scenario to a civilian with a knife in their hand (but as you say is not lunging) are inappropriate comparisons.

    Actual training manuals state any person with any object not just a knife that could be used as a weapon does not have to lunge with that object to pose a threat to life and require certain responses.

    Here is the training manual I have worked with:

    https://www.ciddd.ca/documents/exhibits/P-0624.pdf

    While the above is used in Canada and in particular in Ontario where I practiced law its not that different than the manuals in the US.

    Take a comparison to this one used by US border/customs officers:

    https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/documents/UseofForcePolicyHandbook.pdf


    Or this one from the Seattle police department:

    https://www.seattle.gov/police-manual/title-8---use-of-force/8050---use-of-force-definitions


    Or this one from the Detroit Police:

    https://detroitmi.gov/sites/detroitmi.localhost/files/2020-08/304.2_Use of Force_BOPC.pdf

    Or this one from/for New Hampshire:

    https://www.doj.nh.gov/criminal/documents/law-enforcement-manual.pdf


    I think with due respect people should try at least look up police manuals to see what police are expected to follow and are trained to follow.

    Many people do not understand the training but assume they understand it.

    I tried to find a neutral article neither pro or anti police to try explain the difficult issues in examining the evolution of use of force by police:

    https://fedsoc.org/commentary/publi...-and-the-need-for-professionalism-in-policing

    As you can see it is a highly complex issue.

    What I can tell you having worked in and for the legal system is its under a constant pressure to hold its Judges, prosecutors, lawyers, law enforcement agents all accountable to the public and constantly reform and upgrade training in this area.
     
  23. UntilNextTime

    UntilNextTime Well-Known Member

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    I have worked with police and am a veteran soldier, who understands the nature and scope of escalating - de-escalate situations and the knowledge & practice of reasonable use of force, in a civilian and military setting. In particular,1999. A year's worth of training prior to the 2000 Sydney Olympics and for the operational deployment to East Timor the following year commanding a section of 9 for each event. I'd say I'm pretty full-bottled on the subject matter.

    3rd page, 3rd paragraph

    "Police use of force is designed to gain control of a subject using no more force
    than is reasonably necessary, having regard firstly to officer safety and secondly
    to minimizing harm to the subject."

    Does this not equate to what I've stated?

    This too, also backs my claim about the use of force.

    Even these two, both state similarly. Just because I may have not articulated my words the best I could for you to understand what I was describing, seems to be a personal issue. So then, I put it back to you,
    What is your point with your response?
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2022
  24. ryobi

    ryobi Well-Known Member

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    Maybe it's the way the police are indoctrinated at the academy to believe they're the good guys and the less advantaged are the bad guys???
     
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  25. UntilNextTime

    UntilNextTime Well-Known Member

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    My observations in my neck of the woods (Aus), was confirmed during two years of covid madness. The cops were too weak in the mind, heart, spine and gut to realise their actions were unconstitutional, whatever that means to them.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2022

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