Court allows suit against gun dealer who sold to straw buyer before 2013 homicide

Discussion in 'Gun Control' started by Galileo, Jul 15, 2017.

  1. Galileo

    Galileo Well-Known Member

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    " 'The case has far-reaching implications for whether gun retailers nationwide can be held responsible when guns sold illegally are subsequently used to commit crimes,' The Brady Center said in a news release."
    http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2017/07/court_allows_suit_against_gun.html

    A mother bought guns for her son who later used one of the guns to murder someone. The dealer that participated in the straw purchase is being sued for $9 million. The mother has already agreed to pay the family of the victim $400,000 for her role in the straw purchase. Could this case set some kind of a legal precedent?
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
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  2. Rucker61

    Rucker61 Well-Known Member

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    "The Court held that the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act does not prohibit lawsuits against gun dealers if a plaintiff sufficiently alleges that a gun dealer knowingly aided and abetted a straw purchase."

    I've seen nothing that the dealer knowingly aided and abetted a straw purchase. If they did knowingly do so, there's already precedent:
    http://archive.jsonline.com/watchdo...les-for-1-million-b99632780z1-361609031.html/
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
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  3. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Active Member

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    Really brings into question causation and degree of responsibility.
    Because lawmakers write these laws, and then the laws are interpreted by the courts.

    What does it mean to "cause" something?
    There's a lot of people out there who believe that just because you break the law, and that led to someone getting killed, that you therefore should be held responsible for that death.
    However, that's not necessarily the case. I don't believe people should be held responsible for things unless there's more of a clear direct cause and effect between what they did and what happened.
    If someone commits a murder, someone else should not be held responsible for that murder unless they engaged in tangible actions intending to cause that situation.
    I don't believe enabling someone else to kill, even if that enabling is illegal, is tantamount to intending to cause murder. Kill ≠ murder

    A lawsuit blaming the seller of a gun carries the assumption that the seller engaged in recklessness that endangered life. But just because the sale was illegal does not automatically make it reckless. I really do not see how the legality of the sale should be a big factor. If an illegal gun sale can be considered reckless, so too can a legal sale.

    One really has to question the logic used by some of these judges. Maybe the real question is how to handle these judges. There has got to be some sort of reprimand strategy short of removing them from office, because the latter almost never happens.

    And creating these sorts of vague liability that are not explicitly written into law is not justice.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
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  4. Xenamnes

    Xenamnes Well-Known Member

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    There is a significant absence of information for determining whether or not the federally licensed dealer can be held responsible for any wrongdoing in this case. The only evidence available is the testimony of the mother, the one who committed a straw purchase, and knowingly committed perjury in a federal form, which can result in a prison sentence of ten years. It is largely a matter of nothing but her own word, against the word of the licensed dealer.
     
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  5. Turtledude

    Turtledude Well-Known Member

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    we do know that many of the suits against makers and dealers are motivated by the anti gun movement as an end around court decisions and the second amendment. among the most idiotic are the ones against Remington/Bushmaster by deluded survivors of the Sandy Hook massacre. those idiotic suits are based on the theory that those who actually make AR 15s know that a weapon that is used in less murders than nunchucks, pool cues and tire irons is being sold mainly to "Kill people".

    in case you are ignorant of the facts here is what happened

    Adam Lanza's mother-a woman with a clean record, went to a CT gun store (a store that was hounded out of business by jack booted thugs from a Clinton ATF office) and bought an AR 15. In doing so, she was required to fill out an affidavit where she affirmed she had no disqualifying features. She was subjected to a background check. Her purchases was registered with the state of CT.

    Her son later murdered her and stole her rifle and killed innocents with it

    tell me what Remington/Bushmaster and the Dealer did that merits them being sued?
     
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  6. DoctorWho

    DoctorWho Well-Known Member

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    Was her son a prohibited person ?
    A Felon ?
    Sarah Brady admitted buying a firearm to give as a birthday present to her son.

    So I question the following points;

    Is buying a Gun to give as a Gift to your biological Son really a Strawman sale ?

    The 4473 questions if the sale is legal,

    Did the person conducting the sale have any knoweledge the sale was not legal ?

    What proof was a conviction based on ?
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
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  7. DoctorWho

    DoctorWho Well-Known Member

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    "May a parent or guardian purchase firearms or ammunition as a gift for a juvenile (less than 18 years of age)?

    Yes.
    However, persons less than 18 years of age may only receive and possess handguns with the written permission of a parent or guardian for limited purposes, e.g., employment, ranching, farming, target practice or hunting.

    [18 U.S.C. 922(x)]"


    I don't see how the OP case qualifies under BATF guidelines as a "Strawman Sale".
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
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  8. DoctorWho

    DoctorWho Well-Known Member

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    The more I review this case, it makes less sense.

    An F.F.L. buys a firearm(s) from a Distributor,
    How can the Distributor be held liable for an alledgedly illegal sale made to that
    F.F. L. ???

    How do they prove knowledge or knowingly making an illegal sale, beyond defendant testimony ?

    Or what about "perjury" as far as agreeing to testify in exchange for immunity from prosecution ?
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
  9. Galileo

    Galileo Well-Known Member

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    This case shows why gun registration is really needed. If people knew there would be a permanent record of each and every gun transfer then they would be much more hesitant to take part in illegal straw purchases.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
  10. Turtledude

    Turtledude Well-Known Member

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    horsecrap. when you try to buy a gun at a dealer, there is an affidavit you fill out complete with warnings that if you lie you can do time. yet thousands are caught lying, few are prosecuted. with 400 million unregistered guns, gun registration is worthless. You just want it to harass law abiding gun owners and hopefully turn some into criminals and to suppress legal gun usage.
     
  11. Galileo

    Galileo Well-Known Member

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    The point is that gun registration would encourage gun owners to behave more responsibly when buying or selling guns. Why risk a prison sentence for failing to report a gun transfer or for transferring a gun to someone with a suspicious background?
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  12. Turtledude

    Turtledude Well-Known Member

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    so you believe in prior restraint in the area. the point is gun registration is the wet dream of every group that wants to ban or confiscate guns. gun haters want to push registration KNOWING that in places where it has been passed, the compliance rate is less than 20%. They hope to turn such people into felons. I hope people refuse to register guns if such a law is passed, If enough people refuse the law will fail.

    I see people who want to register guns as the enemy of our constitution and aiders and abettors of violent criminals. You see criminals don't have to register guns. when guns are registered, crooked cops or hackers can find out which homes to burglarize when the home owners are away

    People who plan on selling guns to people they know are felons aren't going to comply with registration and since there is no registration nationally and 400 million unregistered guns, the market for criminals will always be readily filled. Same with the fact that corrupt cops and soldiers divert thousands of firearms to the black market

    All registration does is harass honest gun owners, and that is what your really push for
     
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  13. Rucker61

    Rucker61 Well-Known Member

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    Straw purchasers do it all the time, with the firearm able to to be traced directly back to them.
     
  14. Turtledude

    Turtledude Well-Known Member

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    yeah and few if any are prosecuted. but punishing criminals is not the goal of the ARC. its harassing honest gun owners.
     
  15. Xenamnes

    Xenamnes Well-Known Member

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    Indeed it does not.

    This is incorrect. The only individuals who would be motivated to exercise responsibility due to such records existing, are those who are not inclined to engage in reckless and illegal behavior to begin with. The number of firearms trafficked in states such as California and New York, that originated within the states of California and New York, according to the findings of the ATF, indicate that registration does nothing to motivate responsibility.

    https://www.atf.gov/docs/163532-caatfwebsite15pdf/download

    Page seven. Of the thirty seven thousand and forty three firearms the state of California submitted to the ATF for tracing to determine their state of origin, sixteen thousand five hundred and forty five originated in the state of California itself. No other state, not even the state of Nevada, came close to even half that number. This is despite every single firearm being registered, and every transfer being documented through mandatory universal background checks.

    Because they simply do not care about the law. That is ultimately why.
     
  16. DoctorWho

    DoctorWho Well-Known Member

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    I was helping out at a freinds gun store in PA years ago, I saw a young woman asking about a Tech 9, and it seemed rather odd, I took over the customer as the other counter man had paperwork he was trying to finish.

    I asked questions the young black lady just could not answer.
    Finally she admitted she was buying it for her boyfreind.
    She was annoyed when I informed her the sale could not be made, her boyfreind needed to buy it.

    She never came back.

    Strawman sale for sure.... For a convicted Felon most likely.
    She just did not care.
     
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  17. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yea, look how well it worked in this case! Of course the cousin of the gang member would never risk jail time!
     
  18. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    It's ridiculous. Now we are expecting store owners to read the minds of their customers? I hope this loses, and that the loser of this frivolous lawsuit has to pay the legal expenses for the gun store.
     
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  19. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    You really think that would have stopped this mother? Really? Think about it.
     
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  20. rover77

    rover77 Active Member

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    well, having worked in a gun shop and having called ATF on suspicious activity and suspected straw purposes, this is a bad joke...all I ever got was 'send the paperwork in, we'll look at it'...besides , is Ford responsible for someone hitting a pedestrian with a stolen car?
     

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