Covid-19 vaccines safer than aspirin and Tylenol

Discussion in 'Coronavirus Pandemic Discussions' started by CenterField, Jan 21, 2022.

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  1. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  2. dharbert

    dharbert Well-Known Member

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    Or I can simply not get the vaccine and not have to worry about blood clots or heart inflammation, period....
     
  3. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Do you honestly think you are safer getting COVID itself? Do you think your immunity post infection will protect you?
     
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  4. Melb_muser

    Melb_muser Well-Known Member Donor

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    Sadly, I suspect it's a narrow demographic that is vaccine hesitant - but possibly amenable. The trench lines have been dug and they have forgotten what daylight looks like.
     
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  5. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Why wouldn’t it?

    More evidence pro vaxxers believe crazy things as well.
     
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  6. Professor Peabody

    Professor Peabody Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The FDA requires 12 to 15 years of long term testing before they give approval to any drug on the market. Why would I not trust that the length of testing necessary is the appropriate number before unleashing it on the public. Why are the Covid Vaccines any different?
     
  7. MiaBleu

    MiaBleu Well-Known Member

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    Well stated. There are the vaccine "hesitant"........and then the vaccine RESISTIVE . It is getting harder to be tolerant of those that resist as it seems they care little about their impact on society, other people, the ecoomy and the delay in getting this pandemic under control. When a persons choices affect r potentially affect other people.........that has to be considered. Not sure Vaccine resistors realize that if they get Covid , and pass it on to others.......it is on them.......as they are all part of the same society.
     
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  8. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Thankfully the immunity I’m talking about here (natural immunity) has thousands to millions of years (depending on whether you ascribe to a young or old earth scenario) of “testing” and “data” and “natural selection” backing up it’s efficacy and safety profile.

    Even the CDC has finally admitted what I’ve been pointing out for months—natural immunity has advantages over vaccine induced immunity for Covid (especially new variants). Unfortunately the lady from Oz I replied to is a science denier, for some reason denying natural immunity protects from future exposure/infection with SARS-CoV-2.

    From the CDC:

     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2022
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  9. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    I’ve recently been having a dialogue with a PF member who believes vaccination is the only important lifestyle choice impacting Covid infection, transmission, poor outcomes, and strain on healthcare. Are you of the same opinion?

    Do you find it hard to tolerate obese (by choice)super-spreaders of Covid? Do you find it hard to tolerate people who are vaccinated but have little immunity because their previous lifestyle choices have destroyed their ability to mount an adequate immune response to the vaccine? Do you find it hard to tolerate people who wish to deny the public knowledge of ways to avoid infection and hospitalization that are often as effective as vaccination for preventing infection and hospitalization? Do you have the same disdain for vaccinated individuals who pass Covid on to others?

    I am becoming increasingly disturbed by nearly every healthcare provider on PF completely ignoring all known (and scientifically proven) lifestyle choices that have the power to save/take life or prolong/shorten the pandemic in favor of ONE (vaccination) that is itself failing people who have not first addressed the other lifestyle metrics. I used to believe most healthcare professionals had the best interest of patients at heart. I can no longer in good conscience believe this. No self respecting healthcare provider could ignore diet, exercise, healthy sleep patterns, etc. during a pandemic when they are KNOWN to provide substantial protection from infection and poor outcomes from Covid. No self respecting healthcare provider could ignore the FACT unhealthy lifestyle severely negatively impacts vaccine efficacy.

    I predicted vaccine hesitancy and resistance and how to handle it back in August of 2020 before vaccines were available in this post.


    Unfortunately everything I predicted came true because everything I said NOT to do was done. You guys made your bed, you must lie in it. Remember, if you choose to respond I am not an anti vaxxer so skip that go-to ad hominem attack. Few have done more on PF to disseminate FACTS on virology and immunology than I.

    Sorry to rant on your post, but it’s very clear now we MUST make changes in how public health and healthcare entities address public health. If Covid had been a very deadly pandemic, killing say 10-50% of infected individuals, society would have ceased to function. Luckily the Covid IFR is very low and decreasing with Omicron. We MUST learn from the “mistakes” (intentional and unintentional) made during this pandemic because there is no guarantee the next pandemic will be as forgiving. Public health and immunology MUST be addressed from a systems approach, not a coercive vaccination only approach.

    How do I know? Because I’ve spent over 20 years of my life fighting respiratory epidemics in a variety of species. If I had depended on vaccination alone my career would have ended at about year 3. Our “public health” entities are allowing/facilitating deaths that DO NOT need to happen. I’m weary of watching it happen while healthcare professionals and public health bureaucracies have very effective tools at their disposal they refuse to pull from the toolbox while at the same time coercing use of a tool useless to some and failing many.
     
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  10. MiaBleu

    MiaBleu Well-Known Member

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    Obesity is not contagious. You ca't spread it via exhaling....... and INFECT other people. with obesity


    Because we are dealing with a contagious condition.........that all measures must be used

    If this was not as courageous as it is........we would not even be discussing it........

    one has to decide what is more important..........one's personal beliefs or the society one lives in when a contagion is involved. This will be argued by some indefinitely.......and long after the pandemic is gone. That seems to be the nature of the contemporary humanoid.
     
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  11. Montegriffo

    Montegriffo Well-Known Member

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    Have you got natural immunity or taken the vaccine yet or are you still relying on self isolation?
     
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  12. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Does it?? These though are new compounds - vaccines are known technology with well established modes of action. So does it still take 10-15 years to get a new version of an old drug approved?
     
  13. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    unless one gets covid
     
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  14. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    the dose makes the poison, you're not taking a vaccine daily for the rest of your life

    new flu vaccines are released every year, as well as many other drugs that are not used on a daily basis
     
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  15. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    I consider you a friend so I’ll be frank. At this point in time I’m quite certain nothing I say can make me any more “unpopular” on the subject as I’ve offended vaxxers and anti vaxxers alike by posting FACTS for two years. Of course it should be obvious I have not participated in Covid discussions to get “likes” or be popular. I saw a huge knowledge gap early on in the pandemic and felt it was my obligation as someone well educated in the subject matter and with decades of experience fighting respiratory diseases in diverse populations to share knowledge and supply correct information to counter mis/disinformation. It would be very easy to join one tribe and get “likes” from that tribe. But I would much rather post accurate information in an attempt to educate so people can make good decisions about their health. Both “tribes” have been fed mis/disinformation and constantly regurgitate it on PF. I’m content to just post the actual science.

    I’m going to preface my answer to your questions with these two statements so there is no misunderstanding in the third parties reading this.

    First, I have done my best through this pandemic to educate, not influence. I have never and will never tell someone what they should do with their own body. Furthermore, it’s my sincere desire that my personal behavior NOT influence anyone in their personal decisions about their health. I implore everyone to consider the real “science” and make decisions best for them. On diet, alcohol consumption, illicit drug use, vaccination, risky recreational pursuits and all other metrics that play into longevity and quality of life, I don’t want my choices to influence the choices of others. It’s your choice how you care for your body and my choice how I care for mine. I wish it to remain that way. So anyone reading this, my post here is not meant to influence anyone else’s behavior.

    Second, as you all should know I’m no fan of appeal to authority. I am a fan of empirical evidence and scientific discoveries and the scientific method. I have repeatedly been at odds with public health entities and healthcare providers on PF. But I have always based my position on evidence and those I have been in disagreement with have not. I routinely encourage everyone to provide empirical evidence to support their positions when they disagree with my posts. Ninety nine percent of the time they can not. To be clear, I’m not special or trying to be egotistical. I’m just honest about the actual empirical evidence. Because I have never been at risk from Covid that was out of my control I’ve never had to deal with anxiety or had to be emotionally attached to positions on mitigations to assuage fear for my safety. I think that is one reason I have been able to follow actual science when others in both the opposing Covid tribes have not.

    On to your question. I maintained isolation until I fully understood the risks of infection and vaccination as well as the benefits of both. Also, isolation was always more for others than myself. It allowed my wife and I to have contact with her family throughout the pandemic (who are mostly severely immunocompromised) without putting them at risk. Nor have I relied on self isolation alone for personal protection. I don’t just come on PF and advise people to live a healthy lifestyle to maintain good health and avoid infection and harm from pathogens—I live it. I’m not joking or blowing smoke when I advise lifestyle choices as a way to avoid infection and severe disease. The things I advocate for (diet, exercise, quality rest, stress reduction, vaccination etc. to mitigate disease) are well known to be effective by those who deal with disease in professional capacity. I use the exact same mitigations every day to prevent disease in other species that share nearly identical immune systems to humans. I’ve been advocating for them and practicing them in relation to Covid since April of 2020. I was taking steps to prevent poor outcome from infection months (well years actually for other diseases, but intentionally for Covid for months) before vaccines became available.

    On immunity. I am unvaccinated. For the same reason I don’t take a mile walk for my health at the end of my day in which I already walked/ran an average of 7.5 miles. For the same reason nearly all vaccinated here don’t intentionally design their diet, exercise, and stress level to avoid infection and poor outcomes from Covid. Basically, because of avoidance of redundancy and personal choice of how best to care for my body.

    To be clear, I’m not opposed to vaccination. It’s essential for many. It’s a VERY effective way to mitigate Covid’s effect on your life and health. If you are unwilling to do anything else, it’s an exceptional way to gain some protection. I highly recommend it to those at great risk of death or poor outcomes from Covid. It’s not the only way, but it’s the best way if you are unwilling to address your general health through lifestyle choices. It should be noted that Covid vaccination has no effect on healthy weight, diet and sedentary lifestyle hypertension, lifestyle induced diabetes prevention or reversal, diet and sedentary lifestyle induced heart disease etc. Taking a general health approach not only protects from Covid, but much more from all cause mortality than Covid vaccination alone. It should also be noted vaccination is not a guarantee against poor outcomes. Many who ruined their immune systems can’t benefit from vaccination.

    On natural immunity. Yes, I have natural immunity. By choice. When it became clear everyone was going to be infected at some point and my risk from infection was far lower than the risks I take every day in my profession there was no reason to further avoid the inevitable. I knew I had protection from poor outcome at least equivalent to that from vaccination. I also understood the nuts and bolts of natural immunity vs. vaccine induced immunity. Things like natural infection produces long lived plasma cells whereas vaccination does not and better antibody affinity maturation after natural infection than after vaccination.

    Why am I personally vaccine “hesitant”? A variety of reasons.

    First, while I fully understand the vaccine technologies, they are new. I believe they are relatively safe, but we do not know what effect repeated Covid vaccination will have on immune systems going forward. Although there is no evidence yet repeated Covid vaccination will have the negative effects on the immune system annual influenza vaccination does, I’m not a fan of unnecessary vaccination for this reason. I believe it’s unethical for the CDC and others to lie to Americans about our influenza vaccination policy. I’ll be quite sure of the science before I subject myself to repeated vaccinations now that may deprive me of protection in my senior years when I will need it most. The plethora of deceptions from public health entities on influenza and influenza vaccination are deeply troubling and I see the same playbook being applied to Covid vaccination.

    As an aside on mRNA vaccine technology I’m a big fan. I can’t wait for it to be mainstream in the agricultural industry. But guess what, I won’t be a beta tester on my herds and flocks. :)

    Second, the rates of side effects are higher than other common vaccines. The risk reward ratio makes sense in demographics at high risk from Covid and demographics unwilling to take actions to increase immune health through lifestyle. Less so in low risk demographics with intentionally healthy immune systems.

    There is NO added risk or side effects from addressing Covid with diet, exercise, etc. As I stated above, such actions greatly reduce all cause mortality much more than Covid vaccination alone. And this may sound crazy in this world that seems to revolve around Covid, but all cause mortality is much more important to me than ONE pathogen. Nobody cares that 300,000 die every year from obesity in the US and the strain from that on healthcare is huge (pardon the pun). They don’t care that Covid is a lifestyle disease on its own, afflicting mostly those who made poor choices on health for years. Nobody wants told what to eat or how to exercise, but some want to coerce vaccination. I believe we should all have the choice of how we mitigate Covid (and obesity, type 2 diabetes, hypertension, heart disease, cirrhosis of the liver, cortisol levels, etc.) in our lives.

    In short I chose known mitigations proven by science to be effective without unknown and known side effects. Some choose vaccination. I fully support that. I chose preparation of the immune system, natural immunity, and continued very limited interactions with others (it’s my normal lifestyle).

    To keep from boring you I’ll stop here. But if you have any more questions I’m happy to answer them.
     
  16. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately your “personal beliefs” do not agree with science.

    Obesity is actually contagious pathogenically and socially.


    Obesity is a transmissible disease. The obese are also disproportionate spreaders of most infectious diseases including Covid, influenza and certain skin infections.


    We have known for a long time gut microbes determine many aspects of health, from lifelong immune system health to gastrointestinal dysfunction including obesity.

    Around 2014-15 research started coming in showing how ratios of different gut bacteria affect obesity. Here is one such study.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4644874/

    Now more specific research is coming in on how these microbes are transmitted. It has been found spore forming bacteria and non spore forming bacteria influence to a large degree what kind of microbes you end up with in the gut. The specifics of what exact ratios are“best” and “worst” are yet to be determined and will take a while as there are millions of combinations of organisms to consider. But these microorganisms are most certainly passed from human to human from at birth through adulthood. In fact, fecal transplants are being studied as a way to reverse “bad” colonization of the gut.

    It should be noted that the ratios of good and bad gut microbes can be influenced to the good side by a healthy diet.

    On the viral side of the equation, adenoviruses are known to be linked to obesity in animals and humans. There are a few suggested physiological causes that have not been completely determined, but adenovirus infection is correlated strongly with obesity.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4517116/

    Adenovirus is spread through respiratory droplets by the way. :)

    This is a cutting edge area of science, and of course our choices trump pathogenic components (as Isaid above our diet affects our micro biome). But the infectious component of obesity is a certainty.

    Now, moving on to the more important aspect of obesity. The psychological contagious component

    .
    https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2010/11/5/obesity-obese-people-social/
    https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmsa066082

    If you note the date of the link, it is from 2010. Notice the projection in bold. Guess what the obesity rate is today in the US? About 42.5%!

    Here is another study.

    https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmsa066082

    So not only can obesity be spread by pathogens, it is socially contagiousas well.
     
  17. Peter the Roman

    Peter the Roman Newly Registered

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    It's already quite clear that freedom of speech annoys this guy, as I suspected from the beginning.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2022
  18. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Freedom of speech has nothing to do with it. You are free to object and we are free to tell you you are wrong
     
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  19. Montegriffo

    Montegriffo Well-Known Member

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    Thank you full your full answer, I consider you a friend too.
    I do have a few more questions.
    In your research have you discovered how long natural immunity lasts? Would you think it wise, for example, to catch covid every 12 months in order to top up your immunity?
    If, as it appears, the best immunity you can have is natural immunity plus vaccination (more than double that of natural immunity alone) wouldn't that be the best course of action for the vast number of people who aren't as fit or isolated as yourself?
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2022
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  20. Peter the Roman

    Peter the Roman Newly Registered

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    Yes, we are free to "chime in" and "not deserve any attention", but in spite of that I will intervene if I consider it necessary, or if I feel like it, of course.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2022
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  21. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Monte

    I can’t work out how to link independently to these ABC news video lab videos but if you scroll to the bottom of this news article you will see the video “I have had Covid can I get again?

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-23/nsw-hospitalisation-icu-covid-19-figures-schools/100775756

    It is only seven minutes but clearly and simply explained

    Warning contains traces of Australian accents
     
  22. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Awww! Good for you!
     
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  23. Montegriffo

    Montegriffo Well-Known Member

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    Some interesting numbers in there.
    One thing they didn't mention was how effective vaccines developed for the original strain are against Delta or Omicron.
    If neither natural infection or vaccination can keep up with mutations I'm going to stick with social distancing, mask wearing etc on top of vaccination and continue to do what I can to avoid catching Covid.
    I consider the risk of Covid to be higher than any risks from the vaccine.
     
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  24. Montegriffo

    Montegriffo Well-Known Member

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  25. ToughTalk

    ToughTalk Well-Known Member

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    So you wear a vyzr mask then?
     

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