Debunked, "Socialism has never worked"

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Patricio Da Silva, Jul 7, 2020.

  1. Thought Criminal

    Thought Criminal Well-Known Member Donor

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    "If you believe in supply and demand then underpayment is an objective measure."

    If you believe in supply and demand, underpayment, or overpayment, cannot exist. Thus it cannot be any measure.

    "And of course, we already know that supply and demand predicts that underpayment is the norm."

    No, we don't.

    "Are you rejecting supply and demand?"


    No.

    "Job search refers to how the worker has the right to accept or reject an offer. It is also the underpinning of why supply and demand predicts underpayment. As I said, you're attempting to refer to an oversimplified understanding of perfect competition. It guarantees error."


    There are any number of factors, which could be externally influencing a particular negotiation. That's why a market based approach is the best method of determining value. To dictate a set level of compensation, for all workers, would ensure that both underpayment and overpayment would exist.
     
  2. Thought Criminal

    Thought Criminal Well-Known Member Donor

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    OK. It's legal. It's just not theft.
     
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  3. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    You're only confirming that your position is based on a ridiculously unrealistic world of perfect competition. We know, without any doubt, that supply and demand predicts underpayment. To argue otherwise you have to show that the law of one wage holds. You'd have to show that firms face perfectly elastic labour supply schedules. That is so painfully ludicrous that we can only conclude that you don't understand supply and demand.

    Of course we do. If firms have any wage making power (i.e. the law of supply holds at firm level) then monopsonistic conditions exist. Any labour supply elasticity ensures wage-making power and therefore divorce of average labour costs and marginal labour costs.

    There's not much choice here. You either reject supply and demand or you don't understand it.

    This is inane ramble. The market based approach, because of wage making power, ensures underpayment. That would naturally be eliminated with worker ownership. We'd achieve two outcomes: eliminate rent and also increase productivity.
     
  4. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    When that labor results in enormous productivity increases and huge increases in profits, but real median wages don't reflect such increases while income disparity explodes, I'll call that "theft", because logically IT IS.
    https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/
     
  5. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  6. Thought Criminal

    Thought Criminal Well-Known Member Donor

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    "You're only confirming that your position is based on a ridiculously unrealistic world of perfect competition. We know, without any doubt, that supply and demand predicts underpayment. To argue otherwise you have to show that the law of one wage holds. You'd have to show that firms face perfectly elastic labour supply schedules. That is so painfully ludicrous that we can only conclude that you don't understand supply and demand."


    I haven't seen you show that your idealized system is perfect.

    "This is inane ramble. The market based approach, because of wage making power, ensures underpayment. That would naturally be eliminated with worker ownership. We'd achieve two outcomes: eliminate rent and also increase productivity."

    If you want a good example of a well run, employee owned company, look at Winco. Everything, that I've read, claims that it's a great company. Guess what; they have widely divergent pay scales. The lowest paid position earns 18k annually. Too bad they don't have the force of law to ensure that employees aren't underpaid.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2020
  7. Thought Criminal

    Thought Criminal Well-Known Member Donor

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    I guess that you can call it green eggs and ham, if you want.
     
  8. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    That's not socialism, in any way. That's capitalism paying for 'luxuries'.

    Socialism is the premise that every able bodied person pulls their weight + a little extra to cover the very young, the very old, and the sick. No luxuries, no exceptions. If you refuse to play by the rules you're ejected .. thus losing all the benefits of the collective (housing, food, community, certainty).
     
  9. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Socialism doesn't impact greed. It has nothing to do with greed.
     
  10. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Actually, the guy that spews a lot of intellectual gibberish, that many on the right seem to love, is Jordan Peterson.

    https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/03/the-intellectual-we-deserve
     
  11. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    That'd be me !

    And I'm with you 100%. MUST be voluntary. Doesn't actually work unless it is.
     
  12. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    You cannot steal what is freely given. Unless these employees are actually slaves, they have agreed to the relationship.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2020
  13. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    It cannot be theft when the employee freely agrees to it.

    Until you can prove that people are forced to sign employment agreements, and state exactly by what policing and laws, you're just repeating a nonsense.
     
  14. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    The right does that all the time. They call Obama, me, any democrat, commies, socialists, etc., and when we point to countries that use such programs dems want to propose,when we point at their success, they shout " no, those are capitalist countries, then, over and over and over again, they will 'prove' it with a dictionary entry, never mind the fact that the wikipedia entry on the subject is 73 pages long, which doesn't include the entry on democratic socialism.

    I'm really beginning to think republicans are just plain stupid. Buckley wasn't, but he was rare among conservatives. Buckley was a guy you could talk to. Many on the right, now, you cant' have a two way discourse with them, they will just filibuster the conversation and ignore pertinent facts. I keep saying, what Trump and the right have done is fill their brains with thought-terminating clichés.
     
  15. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    You're the one referring to perfect competition. I've referred to coercion in the labour market and how it can be avoided. Ironically, its closer to the Austrian School.

    We know that hierarchy leads to rent (including the crime of discrimination). We also know that worker ownership increases productivity. Gosh.
     
  16. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Theft is really the wrong word, the correct word is 'exploitation'. People who are disadvantaged are often exploited.

    If the only jobs that are available for someone pays not enough to live on, and the only choice a person as it to accept that job or starve, and that person, choosing not to starve, is that person 'freely accepting" that job, in that circumstance? Technically, perhaps, but morally speaking, the person is being taken advantage of because of their circumstance. That is why there are minimum wage laws in this country, but, even the minimum wage is not enough to live on is most cities.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2020
  17. Thought Criminal

    Thought Criminal Well-Known Member Donor

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    "You're the one referring to perfect competition."

    You cannot find any such quote, from me.

    "I've referred to coercion in the labour market and how it can be avoided."

    I didn't see it. Were you discussing illegal aliens or human trafficking?
     
  18. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Cool story, Bro.

    What does any of that have to do with socialism?
     
  19. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Yep! I’ve unmasked you and revealed your true identity! (You will still get called a conservative, right wing fascist from time to time I suspect). :)
     
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  20. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Exploitation goes two ways. We can choose to exploit those willing to pay us in exchange for our labour .. by ensuring the money they pay us works as hard as possible. Or we can opt for the ease of declaring ourselves a victim, so we don't have to do all that extra work.

    And what do you mean by 'not enough to live on'? By whose standards? By First World capitalist democracy standards? Or by Third World peasant standards? The default for all of us is the Third World peasant, obviously - since anything beyond that is privilege and luxury. Do you demand to live beyond that standard for no reason other than that you think you deserve to via accident of birth?

    If you want more than the default, work for it. And no, I don't mean work for it the way you mean - I mean do whatever it takes to acquire it. A minimum wage is irrelevant .. it's what you do with it that determines how things will go.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2020
  21. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Not 'from time to time' .. ALL the time :p

    The modern Left is so un-left that they don't even know what an actual Leftie looks like. It's hilarious.
     
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  22. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

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    I had some thoughts while watching the videos. Here they are:

    I don't want the public or government to take over the means of production*. (* Unless there is a great calamity, like WW3, and then it should only be temporary.)

    I don't support anarchism. I want the protection of police ect.

    No, don't turn over control to the public.

    Socialism in Venizuala ala democracy to despotism.

    The government becomes the police through regulation.

    Then, they make impossible demands in their economy.
     
  23. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    But it's not LOGICALLY "green eggs and ham". LOGICALLY, it IS theft.
     
  24. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    No, it isn't. The employee signs the contract voluntarily.
     
  25. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    LOL!!!!! So you're telling me you have no clue what logic is. LMAO!!!!!!!

    And probably most jobs don't involve any "contract" or "signing".
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2020

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