Do airplane contrails add to climate change? Yes, and the problem is about to get worse

Discussion in 'Environment & Conservation' started by Josephwalker, Jul 28, 2019.

  1. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    False. Warm periods used to be called, "optimums" before that term was ruled politically incorrect. The Holocene Optimum, which was warmer than today, was what enabled our ancestors to begin civilization.
    The "evidence" that has been systematically falsified...?
    Because the observed data have been falsified, often retroactively, to remove the cycles. The fraudsters even went back and changed the observed numbers of sunspots in centuries-old records to remove the relationship between sunspot activity and global temperature!
    Systematically altering observations to fit a theory is an effective admission that the theory is known to be wrong.
    That is actually the tactic of the anti-fossil-fuel hysteria campaign.
    No, he is aware of valid, established science that the anti-fossil-fuel hysteria campaign is replacing with junk science.
    Nope. Still going on, as satellite images prove.
    Nope. Still going strong.
    Baldly false, as proved by the fact that greenhouse operators add far more CO2 to their air. Money talks louder than all the fake science in the world, sorry.
    Greenhouse operators add more CO2 because it works. They wouldn't spend the money on it if it didn't. Sorry.
    It's definitely beneficial.
    Utter garbage. Within the plausible limits of global climate, higher temperature means more precipitation, which increases bioproductivity, and more CO2 produces more growth.
     
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  2. Josephwalker

    Josephwalker Banned

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    And do you forsake air travel and all goods and services that use jets such as the post office, UPS and Fedex?
     
  3. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The alarmists would have us all go back to the stone age. Their policies are fundamentally immoral.
     
  4. Robert Urbanek

    Robert Urbanek Active Member

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    I believe if we were less materialistic, we would be making fewer online purchases, thus resulting in less shipping by aircraft and other modes of transportation. It doesn’t have to be all or nothing.

    An environmental case can be made for some degree of vicarious living; enjoy the travel programs on PBS instead of joining the cattle cars in the sky to Europe, Asia and elsewhere, and the shallow tourist experience.
     
  5. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What environmental case ??
     
  6. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    Especially all the ones added as the 'elites' from around the globe, all fly in on their private jets for climate change conferences.
     
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  7. Josephwalker

    Josephwalker Banned

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    Once again do you actually live this way or are you just postulating?
     
  8. Robert Urbanek

    Robert Urbanek Active Member

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    I haven't been on an airplane since 1997 and that was a trip within California. I drive less than 5,000 miles per year, which, admittedly is easier to do when you are retired and don't have to commute.
     
  9. Robert Urbanek

    Robert Urbanek Active Member

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    Watching a travel program on TV consumes less resources than flying on a jet to a travel destination. That should be self-evident.
     
  10. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So what ?? Resources are meant to be consumed. That’s how the standard of living advances.
     
  11. Josephwalker

    Josephwalker Banned

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    Not much of a life though. I just returned from Tahoe where I mt biked the famous Flume Trail. I guess I could have watched this video of someone else riding it but well that's not living to me.

    https://flumetrailtahoe.com/flume-trail-ride-description/
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
  12. mamooth

    mamooth Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I've read your new Bible. It doesn't talk about economics, and it fails in its central premise. The actual consensus of economists is that we've already passed the point where any warming is helpful. Pielke is the only outlier, and his methodology stinks.

    You do realize that plants are green, right? The connection is rather obvious to most people. Plant growth and greening are essentially the same thing.

    You know, northern Canada, Alaska, Russia. The Arctic, in the colloquial sense.

    https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2016/nasa-studies-details-of-a-greening-arctic

    I'm saying you're going overly literal now so that you can evade the issue. Instead of addressing the data, you declare "But technically, it's not the Arctic unless it's north of the Arctic Circle!". That's just one definition of the Arctic. I"m using the one that says the Arctic is anything north of the treeline (on low ground), a border created by temperature.
     
  13. mamooth

    mamooth Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Flat-earthers, antivaxxers and scientologists tell me that as well. You're laughed at for same reason they're all laughed at.

    When "IT'S A CONSPIRACY!" is someone's default response to any inconvenient reality, that indicates they're a hardcore conspiracy cultist, brainwashed beyond any hope of redemption.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
  14. skepticalmike

    skepticalmike Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
  15. skepticalmike

    skepticalmike Well-Known Member

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    Below is a paragraph taken from Skepticalscience.com, "The Name is Bond...Gerard Bond" .The graph is also from that article.

    Many of you may be familiar with Dansgaard-Oeschger (D-O) events. These are the rapid climate change events we see in the ice core data during glacial periods. They are easily recognizable in the GISP2 core by rapid warming followed by slower cooling, following an aproximately 1470 year cycle. D-O events are also notable in the climate record as being a redistribution within the climate system because they are also found in Antarctic cores with a corresponding but reverse signal (called an "antiphase"). That is, offsetting warming and cooling between the Arctic and Antarctic. This is not the planet heating up suddenly and then cooling off. It's the planet rearranging how heat is distributed within the overall climate system. This is often referred to as a "bipolar seesaw."

    [​IMG]
    Six bond events in the Holocene occur at 1400, 2800, 4200, 5900, 8100, and 9400 years ago.
    Many proxy records from many locations need to be analyzed before making any conclusions
    regarding changes in the earth's mean global temperature or planetary energy balance.
     
  16. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Pielke Jr. is not the economics reference. You haven’t read anything about economic analysis which includes the benefits of global warming.

    What part of the definition of Arctic ice cap eludes you ???
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
  17. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Of course there is. Do your homework.
     
  18. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Skeptical Science is an alarmist propaganda site.
     
  19. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    Nope. They can't point to actual alteration of data to match the opposing narrative.
    Nope. They are laughed at because their predictions don't match reality -- like the hysterical predictions of the anti-fossil-fuel propaganda campaign.
    The inconvenient reality is that the climate is refusing to change in step with CO2 increases. In fact the ONLY evidence anyone has come up with that the earth is now warmer than in the 1930s -- or the 1130s, for that matter -- is precisely the falsified temperature record.
    Problem is, we ALREADY KNOW the conspiracy exists, it was indisputably revealed in the Climategate emails. It is continuing to deny the known fact of the conspiracy that shows you are brainwashed beyond any hope of redemption.
     
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  20. skepticalmike

    skepticalmike Well-Known Member

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    There are many lines of evidence that the earth is warmer now than in the 1930's. There are 4 data sets of land temperatures, there is the satellite data, there is the ocean temperature data, the ocean
    thermal expansion data, the precision measurements of oxygen and carbon dioxide released from oceans, temperature proxy data, declines in Arctic sea ice, melting glaciers, rising sea levels,
    melting permafrost, and other indirect methods in the biosphere.

    All government investigations of the CRU email hacking incident have cleared the scientists of any dishonesty. There have been many of them.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
  21. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No one denies that the earth is warming.
     
  22. skepticalmike

    skepticalmike Well-Known Member

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    I was responding to "bringiton" who stated that "the only evidence that anyone has come up with that the earth is now warmer that in the 1930"s...." which implies that the earth is not warming or
    if it is warming, no one has any evidence.

    "gfm" responded to the thread that I started with, "we have no idea whether the earth is warmer, cooler, or"

    I have encountered individuals elsewhere who have denied that the earth is warming and some claim that it is cooling.
     
  23. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The only reliable temperature data for the last 100 years is from the continental US which shows a rate of warming of ~ half that of what is commonly presented which is contaminated by urban heating and which uses surface sea temperature (SST) which is dependent not on atmospheric reradiation but vertical and horizontal ocean currents. It also shows the rate of heating in the 30’s and 40’s to be the same as the 80’s and 90’s.
     
  24. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    Nope.
    Using instruments and reading conditions different from those in the 1930s, and data retroactively massaged to show warming.
    That's just self-evidently false.
    Whose instrumental basis has been changed twice since the 1930s, and wouldn't be evidence of warming since the 1930s anyway, because of the oceans' enormous thermal inertia.
    None of which existed in the 1930s.
    Which doesn't consistently show warming since the 30s, which is why Michael Mann invalidly commingled instrumental records with proxy records to concoct his notorious hockey stick graph fraud.
    Nope. The low of 2012 was roughly the same as the lows of the 1930s-40s. Google "St Roch" and start reading. And the Arctic was indisputably warmer and Arctic sea ice less in the 1130s, when the Vikings established farming settlements in Greenland, settlements that would be impossible now, even with modern technology.
    Nope. Some glaciers are melting, others are growing, as usual.
    Nope. The oceans' enormous thermal inertia means that recovery from the Little Ice Age will take centuries to play out in ocean temperature. I.e., because the 1930s were so much warmer than the LIA, the oceans would have been expanding anyway, even if temperatures have not risen at all since the 1930s.
    Nope. Some is melting, some is refreezing.
    Which don't consistently show warming since the 1930s because the proxies are contaminated by increased CO2.
    No, they cleared them of academic misconduct, which was a foregone conclusion anyway. Not of dishonesty, and not of conspiracy.
    But none by anyone who didn't have a motive to clear them.
     
  25. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    That depends on what your definition of "is" is ;^). More accurately, no one denies it has warmed since the Little Ice Age, and warmed in the 20th century. I'd say it may have cooled in the last 2-3 years. Arctic sea ice has increased since 2012.
     
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