Do conservatives still respect the police?

Discussion in 'Opinion POLLS' started by Moriah, Jan 16, 2022.

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Do conservatives still respect the police?

Poll closed Jan 30, 2022.
  1. Yes, I believe they still respect the police.

    14 vote(s)
    70.0%
  2. No, i don't believe they respect the police anymore.

    6 vote(s)
    30.0%
  3. I don't care one way or the other.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    Unless he's made a complete U-turn on freedom of speech, I don't see how anyone could defend him there. But I agree with you on firearms. Trump has gone to court to argue that it should be illegal to call his buildings ugly. He's sued people for publicly (and accurately) questioning the true number of his wealth. He's tried to get people fired for (once again, correctly) questioning his casino business practices. And that's just for starters. He doesn't care about free speech. When he pretends to, it's only to try to force people to publish his views against their will.
     
  2. Moriah

    Moriah Well-Known Member

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    Donald Trump urged those people to "stop the steal" and he said "I'll be right there with you". Then he went home and watched everything on TV.
    That is NOT what a true leader does.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2022
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  3. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    Not to mention sitting on his hands when the violence broke out while people begged him to do something about the violence being committed by his followers.
     
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  4. Seth Bullock

    Seth Bullock Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is a technical, legal definition of "insurrection", and there is a commonly observed meaning. Within that common meaning is that it was organized not by a few, but in concert with all who are involved. Also within that common meaning is some reasonable expectation that the revolt will have widespread popular support and a hope for permanence. Also within that common meaning is an intent to overthrow the present government, not to merely disrupt a meeting and a vote. And finally, within that common meaning is an attempt to overthrow a government using maximum force, with a willingness to kill and be killed in the effort. Sorry, but January 6th just doesn't rise to that level for me to agree that it was an "insurrection." Unlawful, yes. Criminal, yes.

    No, if Muslims from the middle east did the exact same thing, I would not call it "terrorism". Again, there is a technical legal definition of the word, and there is a common use and meaning of the word. I regard "terrorism" in most cases as an attempt to cause mass civilian casualties in furtherance of a political goal. The Boston Marathon bombing was such a case, and we can all think of others. The Oklahoma City bombing was another. The attacks on the Twin Towers on 9/ll, and so on. In a country where guns and ammo can be had, the January 6th riot could have become a terrorist attack if they had wanted it to be one, but they didn't.

    Ashli Babbit was essentially carrying out the crime of Trespassing and Vandalism when she was shot to death. She was not posing an imminent threat of death or great bodily injury to anyone when a bullet hit her in the chest, killing her. In cases where a black person (or any person) is merely trespassing or doing "far less" than that, I would not justify a police shooting. I support the police. I am a retired police officer. But I would not justify any shooting just because it was done by the police. I've had to make deadly force decisions before. These are decisions that you have got to live with afterwards, and I'm glad I can look back on my career knowing that I never shot an unarmed, 5-2, 115 lb, woman for Trespassing. I'm glad I don't have to live with that.

    Seth
     
  5. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    She wasn't just trespassing. She was feet away from lawmakers and breeched the final barricade that protected them, while encouraging the violent mob to follow her.
     
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  6. Moriah

    Moriah Well-Known Member

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    I guess I'm not into legal, technical definitions. I never went to law school.
    But---are you familiar with the Laquan McDonald case? He was a Black, unarmed teenager who was shot 16 times while walking AWAY from the police. ( Chicago, Illinois)
    Or the Tamir Rice case? He was the 12 year old with the toy gun who was killed by police. The officer who killed him jumped out of the car and started shooting, no warning at all. (Cleveland, Ohio)
    There are many others. These 2 just come to mind immediately.
    Why do you keep repeating Ashli Babbitt's height and weight? What is the significance of that?
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2022
  7. Stuart Wolfe

    Stuart Wolfe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If you have NO close conservative friends, then well - you kinda are. I mean, I'm SURROUNDED by LW-ers, and many of them are my friends. Can't help that - I work in education.
     
  8. Seth Bullock

    Seth Bullock Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    She did put herself in a dangerous position. She owns a lot of responsibility for what ultimately happened to her.

    By the same token, we don't accept that excuse when other people get shot by the police. "Well, he shouldn't have resisted" is not an excuse, right? We only accept people getting shot by police if they are actively posing an immediate threat of death or serious physical injury.

    I understand that everyone was alarmed. I think the police still had options, though. I don't think their only option was to shoot an unarmed woman at that point. Punch her right back through that window, use pepper spray, warning shots into the floor, or even shoot low at ankle/shin level. All it would have taken to turn that crowd back was a single shot and it didn't have to be a killing shot into the chest of an unarmed woman.

    In 2020, Portland had about 120 days of nightly riots over the George Floyd killing. During those riots the occupied federal courthouse was broken in to. The occupied Justice Center was broken in to. An occupied high rise residential condominium building was broken in to and set afire on the bottom floor. And an occupied building housing the police union offices was broken in to. Do you know how many people the police shot and killed in those incidents? ZERO. And just how well do you think it would have gone if they had just opened fire on the first person through the door, and it was an unarmed woman?

    I'm a retired police officer, and in my career I dealt with many sh-tty situations before. I've made deadly force decisions before. I'm glad I don't have to live with this one.
     
  9. Seth Bullock

    Seth Bullock Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, I know both cases. My take ...

    McDonald - not justified
    Rice - Very poor tactics, but justified. At 5-7, 175 lbs, he didn't look like a 12 year old, and he had a replica airsoft gun that looked like a Colt .45 Automatic. He was shot when he reached towards his waistband and gripped the toy gun.

    As for Babbitt's size ... Because her gender, height, and weight all have a bearing on how much of a threat she posed to the officers and anyone else. A 6-2, 215 lb, male presents a much higher threat than a 5-2, 115 lb, female.
     
  10. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    Believe 1/2 of what you see and none of what you hear/read.

    ...
    The U.S. Attorney’s Office for the District of Columbia’s Public Corruption and Civil Rights Section and the Civil Rights Division, with the Metropolitan Police Department’s Internal Affairs Division (IAD), conducted a thorough investigation of Ms. Babbitt’s shooting. Officials examined video footage posted on social media, statements from the officer involved and other officers and witnesses to the events, physical evidence from the scene of the shooting, and the results of an autopsy. Based on that investigation, officials determined that there is insufficient evidence to support a criminal prosecution. Officials from IAD informed a representative of Ms. Babbitt’s family today of this determination.
    https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/department-justice-closes-investigation-death-ashli-babbitt
     
  11. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    There are many threads condemning the Capitol police officer and hailing babbitt as a hero.
    Just 1 with many pages.

    http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?posts/1073188305/like
     
  12. Moriah

    Moriah Well-Known Member

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    Even if I did have close conservative friends, that doesn't mean they would honestly share their political views with me. They might tell me a few things, but they'd probably keep most of their thoughts to themselves.
    I'm sure I get a lot more insight on conservative beliefs here than I would from a conservative friend.
     
  13. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    Why would you think they're more honest on message boards? Sure, they'll say things on a message board they would never dare say to someone face to face. But that doesn't mean that they're honest about it. Did you know that there are forums specifically designed to make X party/person out to be worse than they actually are? They're usually ran by a small group of people who make multiple "user accounts" and take on the persona of the side they want to make look bad. They do so by espousing the most extremist of positions. When a regular person joins up and says things that don't support those positions they de-ride that person for a few days, sometimes a few weeks, and then eventually ban that person for some "violation". Its much like what Russia did in the 2016 election on FB et al. After an election is held those forums that target certain politicians usually disappear until the next election cycle when they're reborn targetting some other politician.
     
  14. MJ Davies

    MJ Davies Well-Known Member

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    People have different ideas about what a word means and how it applies. For this reason, can you share a bit about what *you* think of as Republican conservatives "admiring" and "respecting" the police, please?
    Yes and no. See below.
    Since I don't know your thoughts on my first question, this may or may not apply but I believe it to be a "general" perspective about the issue of Republican conservatives and law enforcement.

    1. Trump

    Former POTUS Trump didn't and doesn't have a poker face or the filter most of us have between a thought and what we say. For this reason, he has used his ability to spin things in such a way that some people have become *blindly* loyal to him.

    A POTUS, **ANY** POTUS has a significant impact on the people the leads and Trump's sway is even deeper than that. And, whether his staunch supporters realize it or not, he is a very, very skilled con man. He's been doing it his whole life. He tells people what they want to hear, makes promises he has no intention of keeping and his only purpose has been to enrich himself on the backs of his marks (a person a con man is conning). Many of them can't even recognize they are being manipulated although some have had no choice because of his very loud *silence* and overt failure to stand behind the people that have stood behind him (ie. Capitol rioters, Powell, Giuliani, Pence, Barr, etc. a long trail of bodies in his wake).

    Trump didn't stand behind Fauci or Birx and, in many ways, was actually counterproductive in our country's mitigation of COVID. He basically wanted to get all the perks of being our POTUS but none of the responsibilities so he just told us a bunch of lies day after day (ie. it goes away in warm weather, we've shut it down, it's going to be fine, etc.). The released call with Woodward in those early days told us the truth of what he knew and when he knew it. Yet, he still never encouraged or modeled Fauci's or the CDC's recommendation and many of his supporters mimicked the apathy and minimization as hospital admissions and deaths piled up around us.

    And, in much the same way, whether you believe he willfully planned the Capitol riot or coerced or manipulated his rally supporters to do what they did or if he had nothing to do with it, NOBODY on either side can truthfully say that he took control of the situation in a timely manner. Like all of us, he watched them beat hundreds upon hundreds of police officers. He watched them scale walls and chant Pence's name and did absolutely NOTHING. The only thing he did for those harrowing hours when those people breached the the seat of our government was call Senator Lee to implore him to stop the certification.

    Nobody can truthfully say that he respects or admires law enforcement because here we are today, 1 year and 10 days after that and he has yet to say any of those officer's names. Not one. So, we already knew what he thought of our military and the riot showed us what he thinks of police officers (and anybody that doesn't kiss his backside). Can you imagine the depth of depravity and evilness it would take to put not only lie about Pence's legal authority to stop of overturn the certification but say that to a group of people that he knew were angry about his loss?

    Pause on that for a minute.

    Do you think that any human being with a soul could stand by and do NOTHING but watch in earnest anticipation while thousands of angry people breached the building to seek out Pence for the express purpose of hurting him in some way, up to, and possibly including murder?

    I argue that is absolutely impossible.

    Maybe I'm just naïve and want to think all our fellow Americans pondered that thought over this past year and it didn't reconcile with their own values. I just can't conceptualize millions or even tens of thousands of our neighbors, co-workers, friends, family, etc. sanctioning that.

    Trump's agenda is clear. The only agenda was and still is to burn our Constitution and plant himself as our leader in such a way his descendants will govern via dictatorship and those that believe in him are more than willing for ANY measure to be taken to see it happen.

    One man with delusions of grandeur is mostly tolerable. Millions of people actually reversing their own stance about our Constitution, laws, law enforcement and potentially murder...We are in a very, very precarious situation.



    2. "Valuation" of people

    Despite the "everybody is equal" Hallmark moments some of us lie to ourselves about in this country, the way it works in real life is...

    1. white males are the top tier
    2. white women and children
    3. famous people
    4. everybody else
    ---------------------------------------
    1. Heterosexual people
    2. Non-heterosexual people
    3. A-sexual
    ---------------------------------------
    1. Christians
    2. non-denominational Christians
    3. every other belief in a deity/deities
    4. agnostics
    5. atheists
    ---------------------------------------
    1. Advanced degree (ie. doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc.)
    2. College degree
    3. High school diploma
    4. Dropouts that completed a GED
    5. Drop-outs that didn't obtain a GED
    6. Illiterate (there is one exception here - Trump)
    ---------------------------------------
    1. Full mental health and function
    2. Full physical health and function
    3. Physical disability - Disabled/differently-abled
    4. Mental disability - Disabled/differently-abled

    ---------------------------------------
    USA
    UK
    All other countries with a majority of white people
    All other countries with a majority of brown people
    All other countries with a majority of black people

    ---------------------------------------
    1. Law abiding citizens (including those who have committed unknown crimes)
    2. Former inmates (able to readjust to society without resorting to criminal behavior and acts)
    3. Former inmates (recidivism)

    ---------------------------------------
    1. White-collar criminals
    2. misdemeanors - Petty crimes (not leading to arrest and prison)
    3. misdemeanors - Petty crimes (leading to arrest and/or prison)
    4. felonies (not imprisoned, fined, community service, etc.)
    5. felonies (imprisoned, term limit)

    a. Murderers
    b. Rapists
    c. Pedophiles

    6. felonies (life in prisons)

    a. Murderers
    b. Rapists
    c. Pedophiles

    7. felonies (death penalty)

    a. Murderers
    b. Rapists
    c. Pedophiles
    ---------------------------------------
    1. Celebrities.
    2. Very rich, multi-generational families
    3. Very rich, singly (wealth wasn't inherited)
    4. Upper middle-class
    5. Middle class
    6. Lower middle class
    7. Poverty, singly (poverty wasn't handed down)
    8. Multi-generational poverty

    ---------------------------------------

    That's all I could think of right now. LOL

    So, if you use this list and overlay it on any action/inaction, crimes, education, etc. we can conclude that Republican conservatives admire and respect law enforcement personnel *as long as* their role keeps this heirarchy.

    From there, we can easily see why there admiration/respect has not shown itself for the hundreds of injured and 5 dead police officers is not only fluid, but non-existent for those LEOs at the Capitol that day. Like Trump, "any means necessary" is just that.

    And, this is not inconsistent with their ire about Chauvin's and Potter's convictions while blaming Byrd, the black officer that shot Babbitt for doing the exact same thing they use as justification for white cops killing black and brown people.

    They did up any dirt to rationalize why a black or brown person has been killed by cops but have completely ignored that Babbitt doesn't have a pristine past and was known to police officers in her community.

    Breonna Taylor was killed in her own bed. The general consensus seems to be "The only good "n" is a dead one." while pretending that's not their position.


    The shortest formula is "who is Republican?", "Who is white?" "Who is heterosexual?"


    Democrats do the same thing...

    The shortest formula is "who is a Democrat?", "Who is white?" "Who is heterosexual?"

    That's why they are doing everything they possible can to silene the votes of people that live in a county or state that is not like to vote D.

    Hope this helps! ;-)
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2022
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  15. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    I can't even begin to know where to start with this complete BS. You can't even get basic facts straight. Such as the fact that NO police officer was killed Jan 6, much less 5. Or that Breonna Taylor was not in bed when she was shot. She was standing behind her boyfriend Kenneth Walker. The rest of what you wrote is nothing more than opinion...AT BEST. In general your post is nothing more than divisive leftist spewing crap that bears no resemblance to reality.
     
  16. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    Conservatives don't respect anybody and never really did to my experience. Generally , Hillary had them pegged perfectly, a "basket of deplorables"; racists, kleptocrats, misogynists, hypocritical moralists, religious fanatics, fascists and first, last and always total authoritarians. I'm noting lately that a larger number than I used to think are flat-out Nazis but that's more or less and it may be that I'm getting more liberal as I get older. One thing I think is beyond dispute, the majority of them have gone totally nerts in the last year, following conspiracy theories each more bizarre than the last and culminating in the idea that an invasion of the Capitol where they killed policemen, ransacked offices, terrorized our elected representatives and smeared their feces on the walls was a misguided tour.
     
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  17. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    Much of what you said here is personal opinion. But you did state something as fact, that is false. No police officer was killed Jan 6. Stop spreading the lie.
     
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  18. CKW

    CKW Well-Known Member

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    I hope so.
     
  19. CKW

    CKW Well-Known Member

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    Good.
     
  20. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    I just think it's absolutely hilarious that someone like @Aleksander Ulyanov who is on record here stating exactly this..... He believes that anyone who refused the vaccine should be carted off to prison for 1 year and forcefully vaccinated and then they should be fined $1,000 and if they have children that their children should be taken from them.

    Would have the absolute Gall necessary to call anyone else an authoritarian.

    And then there was the post that was likely removed for advocating of violence where he said they should go door to door with armed police officers forcing Americans to be vaccinated and "make an example of" those who resisted

    I will never let him or this forum forget such an extremist position.

    And anytime he wishes to call anyone else in authoritarian or extremist I will remind him of his own words
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2022
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  21. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    I haven't seen that post of his. Link?
     
  22. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    It was some months ago in one of the virus vaccine threads.

    I have a screenshot of it on my laptop which I do not have hooked to the internet now as I'm posting from a smartphone.

    I have frequently reminded him of it and he has not even had the interest to even address the post.

    He has certainly not denied it.


    If I need to take my laptop out and turn on my hotspot if that's what it takes I suppose I could but it will be easier for him to tell us in his own words.

    I'm sure I'm not the only one here who remembers it, it stands out prominently in my memory as one of the most extremist positions I've ever seen on this entire forum
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2022
  23. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    Well @Aleksander Ulyanov ? Are you going to admit? Or should we have @FatBack post his screenshot?
     
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  24. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    I will guarantee you that's exactly what he said.
    I also guarantee you it's not a mistaken identity it was certainly him.....

    In fact I remember my exact post at the time almost word for word.....

    I told him may he never see a position of power may he never be elected so much as dog catcher or be within sight of any City Hall
     
  25. Moriah

    Moriah Well-Known Member

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    I agree with what he said. He is right about the differences in how White and Black police officers are treated.
    And how White victims are valued more than Brown or Black victims.
    I think MJ Davies used to be a police officer too. So he knows what he is talking about.
    No matter where Breanna Taylor was in her apartment, the police were still wrong for breaking down her door. They used a no-knock warrent to bust in and just start shooting. None of those policemen were charged or convicted either.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2022
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