Do we need so many Colleges and Universities in the Information Age?

Discussion in 'Education' started by tkolter, Jun 3, 2019.

  1. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    I want to pose a question do we need these institutions at the levels we have them, I will note this is simply going to be a case for debate and for students who traditionally go to them not should so many students go.

    Now lets assume that for the purpose engineering and scientific purposes to train our best minds in the state of the art of our knowledge in these areas and apply them and include professions who must go and I mean must (lawyers, medical doctors and nurses high up in the profession).

    That leaves business, arts, humanities and social sciences of all kinds. Now why do you need Higher Education for these as they are?

    Artists can go to Art Schools and don't most master art by doing fine artists well work on their art and if good can earn a living at it, musicians practice music and actors act and there are workshops and specialty options for this. So why college with four years and majors for these save specialty elite schools.

    Next business well okay business schooling in practical skills can be useful accounting, computer use, etiquette, languages and well you get the idea so again why a college with other unneeded content including I will argue statistics and algebra since computers do much of this automatically.

    That leaves other things like English, Philosophy, Gender Studies and toss in all the rest this is the INFORMATION AGE you can read the Great Works on the internet, learn history from videos and other content, gender studies, sociology and methodology and tons of other areas without any cost save access for FREE. A modern Philosopher could learn all they want on-line, set up a web site, go on forums, have a debate club and other sources to think thoughts and for FREE or low cost. Same for most other areas if one is motivated from the start and inquisitive minds would be. And again it would be cheap or free in most cases.
    And could undo the indoctrination and biases of professors influencing those scholars so inclined to work on areas.

    I'm not sure of Archeology and limited other areas once can do those by self-learning but others might argue a formal education might work best to get a series of skills but didn't people do these before formal majors and studies?

    Well that is what I want to debate could we eliminate many schools and focus the rest on key areas of human knowledge, restructure other options two to three year schools in business and other areas, with an eye to practical skills over theory and the rest abandon or do other options. I'm not opposed to Philosophers having societies to promote that and provide lecturing and structure for an example but why degrees that's my point especially with this being largely useless to society as far as work goes.

    Lawyers could go to schools to study that without college to say a four year law school, time working in a paralegal capacity and doing more scholarship using lectures and self-study then apply for the bar to be a lawyer doing licensed work cutting out a bachelors degree altogether. Under new models as well but keep the schools just add a year if deemed necessary.
     
  2. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Banned

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    Sure. You can study as an apprentice to a lawyer in CA and take the Bar Exam without going to law school.
     
  3. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    One good example but a dedicated four year degree could be better if you skip the bachelors or make a bachelors focusing on applied law enough for bar entry or eliminate the Bar, with technology talent and connections will lead talent to a higher level of work in that field.
     
  4. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Banned

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    I think UK and in South America and Cuba a dedicated four year program leads to a bachelor of laws.

    It's not a bad idea at all, but the law schools here don't like it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2019
  5. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    I brought this up at the local university to professors and the like and most hated it I pointed out though what good is a degree in theater most people make a go of it or not by talent maybe with workshops and working their way up or were 'discovered'. And Philosophy although I deem it of some value isn't worth the cost of degrees and graduate school. Over the cheaper options I noted.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2019
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  6. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    Abraham Lincoln never went to law school.

    At least half of the law schools in the USA should be closed down as the degrees they issue are often worthless, just like mine is.
     
  7. perdidochas

    perdidochas Advisor Staff Member

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    Theoretically, you are right. In practice, you aren't right. Most humans don't have the self-discipline to educate themselves without a formal structure. Also a lot of the skills (like algebra and statistics) that you malign are necessary for different reasons than you think. Yes, the computation part of statistics shouldn't be taught anymore. However, all of the assumptions and proper usage of those statistics are more important than ever. In terms of algebra, mostly it's a matter of conditioning the mind. Pullups and pushups and other calisthenics have nothing to do with playing football. However, they get the player in shape to play football. Algebra is the same way in terms of certain types of thinking. They exercise our brain.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2019
  8. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    I do separate STEM fields and areas where inquiry demands serious exposure to laboratories and other facilities an Astronomer or Chemist or similar fields including mathematics is not the same as Philosophy or Theater Arts I don't see the point if one has the discipline to be a Philosopher then there is no real need for a University. One can have societies for humanities or gender studies or writing even. And unless you get into a school such as Julliard a unique school then okay your being taught by masters of the craft of acting its likely worth it but for many a State School dropping a big sum of money or the debt involved your better off working in the field and doing workshops. Seems to me if one has the talent then you will make a living at it and if not your going to quit and do something else.
     
  9. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    I wanted to add if your not motivated enough to seek an area of inquiry ,not STEM heavy, as I pointed out is another matter. But say History or Philosophy then maybe you shouldn't be in college having your hand being held and spoon fed knowledge by overpaid academics who never lived outside academia in many cases paying out a large sum in cash or accrued debt to learn what you could using other means.

    You want to study biochemistry or physics or mathematics fine its good to go through school and work on a graduate degree later.
     
  10. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Donor

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    Maybe you fail to understand what the purpose of these college educations are actually for.
     
  11. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    I do, indoctrination. Well save the areas of serious studious science what is the point of pissing away $50k to study gender studies or philosophy its quite possible of one likes those things to study on your own or maybe do things like a association or guild structured option to explore them. And how many of our finest artists in history learn that at a university over having spent some time learning the basics and then their genius flowed onto canvas or through their hands I get art training can help but its not going to make someone a master. Frida, Picasso and many artists never stepped into a university or even had a formal art education. Acting the same thing you far better trying to do it starting in low end opportunities and if your good at it you will earn a living. Philosophy I can right now go on-line read the works of those men and women, all the great works in any field and in time gain a good education for the cost of a computer and my internet connection its the interaction I won't get but forums, live streams and going to philosophical conferences can replace that.

    Business well if your good at it you need skills and can get those at two year schools well enough and work at business again unless your wishing to be a CPA or run a corporation due to connections you should work at the business you wish and then start your own most businesses are small ones not corporations. The corner café or boutique is more likely to be your life statistically especially as AI takes over the marginal labor in corporations and accounting isn't a thing done in the US by them. So is lets be honest again is a university any place for business a business college will be good enough and that could be simple skills.

    That leaves teaching, STEM fields, pre-professional training and legal education could be done directly from High School going into law schools adding a year of essential courses and medicine the same get the core STEM courses in a fast as you can and go to medical school shave off a two years doing that.

    And Foreign languages there are options to why not if you want to learn Chinese, move to China, stay two years, take classes, work some and in two years your likely going to be fluent pretty well in Chinese. The same for French can't one go to a French speaking country and learn it. And might be far cheaper than attending a university.

    I just think we need to restructure education so its cheaper, faster and cuts out the dead weight of things a student can best learn outside an academically rigorous university.
     
  12. perdidochas

    perdidochas Advisor Staff Member

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    I disagree. I think a well rounded STEM education is best. Why? Because you don't know what job you will have 20 years after college graduation. The field I'm in now didn't even exist when I was in college, yet my well rounded science education (B.S. in Biology) prepared me for it. Basically speaking, your view above is about fighting the last war. We need to be thinking about the next war.
     
  13. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    $1.5 trillion debt.

    Close them down, now!
     
  14. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    Biology is STEM field I never oppose higher education for that at all or if one gets one with a teaching credential or re-med path or attached to a degree in nursing which are all useful.



    Watch that video now take these degrees Persian Studies is not useless if you get a good support degree and get a Masters the man is write the government will love you and the armed forces take you on as a specialist popping you a rank or maybe two easily. But I would argue why bother with such specialized degrees someone living in Iran can learn the language and take classes, learn about the culture and come back and get a degree in something useful like Counter Terrorism Studies and likely be more valuable to the government or doing work. So some of these degrees might be of value but many won't, Drama he's right no manner of degrees will make you a success and film the same thing and other degrees like Philosophy well I consider pointless. I know West Point offers Philosophy if the Army considers it of value I won't say a thing save they walk out of school with a JOB or CAREER as an officer. So its not the same thing.

    Many majors just don't matter unless you get into Julliard and are deemed a gifted person taking a Drama education is useless to most others and especially with the debt your taking on. The man is right if you earn what you have in debt you owe then your likely going to do fine. Political Science might have some value however unless your from a political family or one with money and that means likely going to an elite private school your going to make it but John Doe a poor boy from Montana might never get a job in that field where you need the degree from the State school.

    Take the Drama major near the end young woman if she went to work in acting starting small Off Off Broadway or similar and then gain skills and then try for better parts she will either start making it or not and could then do something else. Without the debt. Maybe go and get a two year nursing degree and work for a bachelors something useful.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2019
  15. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    Re-upload lf the previous link it was Copyright Struck by PBS so the originator re-did it enough I hope. But my case still is many of thee degrees can be self-taught, taught via some kind of society with some structure or should be limited to private schools and should even then get no taxpayer backed funding for them either loans or grants.

    If your in Harvard and want to major in Art History knock yourself out but Florida State shouldn't offer it but rather should focus on something useful if its funded by taxpayers. Maybe, just maybe, a minor might be fine if the major has substance.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2019
  16. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    some day Virtual Reality will replace them... as AI will replace most jobs in the future.. who needs jobs anyways

     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2019
  17. ibobbrob

    ibobbrob Well-Known Member

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    The socialization of our younger generation is equally as important as the learning experience, and our colleges offer both.
     

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