Do you feel it's difficult to provide a modest middle class life today?

Discussion in 'Economics & Trade' started by kazenatsu, Apr 2, 2018.

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Is providing for oneself a modest middle class living standard difficult?

  1. No, anyone with a half decent brain and strong work ethic can do, not extremely difficult

    8 vote(s)
    32.0%
  2. Not really much more difficult than it's always been

    8 vote(s)
    32.0%
  3. only for those who aren't college material

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Yes, it is substantially more difficult today, people are treading water trying to stay afloat

    9 vote(s)
    36.0%
  1. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Please don't lie. I have clearly said, twice, that I find you ignoring the consequences of racism to be despicable.
     
  2. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    Ignoring the consequences of wholesale state theft is despicable.
     
  3. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    I already know that you ignore racism. You're a neat example of how right wing libertarianism is supportive of coercion.
     
  4. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I can assume all I want in any given context that demonstrates that what is written is racist in nature.

    It is called, uh, "freedom of speech". You seem to have forgot, if you ever learned, what debate is ...

    It is not exchanging sarcastic one-liners ....
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2018
  5. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    I'm glad that you're in favor of freedom.

    Wait, actually you're not....
     
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  6. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    You won't get any kind of sensible answer. For obvious reasons.
     
  7. james M

    james M Banned

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    do you want to cripple and imprison blacks like liberals did with their efforts to pay attention to racism?
     
  8. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Your question is blubbering. Given its a response to acknowledging the reality of racism to a denier, it demonstrates no insight
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2018
  9. james M

    james M Banned

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    benign neglect is far better than deadly crippling liberal efforts to pay attention to racism
     
  10. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    benign neglect is best case scenario. all given precisely the same tools, but given just the tools.
     
  11. james M

    james M Banned

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    well giving them tools is the best way to insure they can never buy their own so even that is too much really.
     
  12. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    What I mean by tools is free education, primarily. Free libraries, museums, art galleries etc are also tools.

    No more is needed than that, really. If you're a young parent, you can use these tools to propel your kids forward, or you can leave them in the toolbox - because actually using them means cracking a sweat.
     
  13. james M

    james M Banned

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    well it's free now and how much does it help poor black kids? I'd say we're better off without even that. When you have to pay there is no goofing off unless you like wasting your own money. Its so easy to waste the taxpayers money.
     
  14. 61falcon

    61falcon Well-Known Member

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    Todays news reporting an income of $117,000 is considered low income in the San Fran?Oakland area.
     
  15. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    I see it differently. When there is a level playing field, and everyone has exactly the same access to the opportunities presented by that playing field (free education, in this case), it becomes very easy to see who is simply choosing not to avail themselves. Once we know who they are, we can reasonably and justifiably disregard them - and all their whining and complaining.
     
  16. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Makes sense. That would be a low income in my nearest city, also. Or rather, it would be the minimum needed to stay housed. Even for those who can't afford to buy a family home at $2mil, rents are $1000 a week - so you really need to be earning well over $100k.
     
  17. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    If you want to have a debate with yourself over the need for active labour policies such as positive discrimination, be my guest.

    You're responding to posts that just refer to the obvious: discrimination has ensured that workers have not been paid according to their worth. Further, Oaxaca-Ransom decomposition methods have shown problems continued (demonstrating that the idea workers somehow voluntarily accepted underpayment is strikingly silly)
     
  18. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Where I live 'affordable housing' is $600K...how many average Americans can qualify or afford $600K?
     
  19. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I lived in a region where small budget condos were going for $320-400K. Some of them were just apartment units that had been converted over into condos, and even then there were bidding wars and most of the time offers would be rejected in favor of another higher bidder. This was several years ago, it's probably even more now. I'm not talking just a single city or small area, you could try moving an hour or two out of commuting distance and the prices still wouldn't come that down much.

    That basically means you would have to have two working professionals to be able to buy and live in what used to be someone's apartment.

    Most people who moved out of the area had to move at least 300 or 400 miles away. Although it's causing problems because it's putting a strain on jobs in these surrounding areas. If you just moved 150-200 miles away, the housing is still fairly expensive and the unemployment rate is pretty high, a result of so many people having already moved there escaping high housing costs.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
  20. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    For the 50%+ of the population who cannot afford the higher cost of living areas, yet are in great demand to work in those areas, I like the idea of high-rise developments which are probably non-profit, subsidized by taxpayers, very efficient and small units, with some available for purchase and others for rental, and they must be truly affordable for those earning median wage or below...like 25% of their net income. They will be located on/near transportation hubs and in those areas which demand their type of work. It doesn't take too many of these types of units, each housing maybe 1000-4000 people to make a difference. IMO it is this type of affordable housing that is required to be zoned into our cities...
     
  21. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    And who will pay for these?

    "Affordable Housing" is code for "I want/deserve to live in big expensive cities I can't afford, so someone else should pay"
     
  22. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    Subsidizing bad choices only reduces, if not eliminates good or better choices being made and is very costly.
     
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  23. roorooroo

    roorooroo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Could you elaborate on this further? What does "probably non-profit" mean?

    Why should the taxpayers subsidize this?

    Obviously, "truly affordable housing" would be in high demand, so how would it be determined who does and who does not get to live there and take advantage of the taxpayers' largess?
     
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  24. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I suspect the problem is acute in those countries (like the US) where people think "the market decides all and it is best that way".

    The results as regard real-estate around major work centers show how true that rule can be. Which is why I also agree with the idea exposed above that around major industrial centers, perhaps local governments should become involved in creating real-estate.

    I never did understand how Silicon Valley became Silicon Valley. With a younger generation caught in a a "real-estate trap", meaning even a good salary does not allow them the ability to invest in possessing property.

    But, there they are. Like a field-day, all in large centers, all staring keenly at a monitor and typing on a keyboard. Whilst others lounge and still others play ping-pong.

    That's work? Boy, am I ever getting older ... !

    PS: But one sees no one smoking a cigarette. I guess that is no longer fashionable in the US?
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
  25. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Obviously you don't understand the need for affordable housing? You demand that police and fire fighters show up to assist you and that teachers educate your kids but you don't care that they cannot afford to live where the work is located. You seem to be fine with someone earning lower income yet commuting 1-3 hours each way every work day? Obtain some empathy for this issue...
     

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