Do you support the right of secession?

Maybe the analogy still had some validity in the 50s. What we've had from Bush 41 to Obama is swinging between the party of larceny and treason to the party of appeasement, which does not manifest anything like the systemic stability that analogy implies.

Hey, thanks for bumping that to the top of the page.

 

I know I can look it up, and I recall what it was--what I want from you is your explanation of how what was said was "anti-Jewish".

Danke.

 

So basically you want to argue that their statements were not anti-jewish. I already know the talking points. If you want to relive it, you can go to one of the many threads that covered this.

 

Monoco vs Mongolia?

No one seems to want to discuss the settlement.

Would an amicable separation require that federal aid to needy states continue?

According to the Tax Foundation, the highest federal aid recipients are Mississippi (45.3% of the state’s general fund budget), Louisiana (44%), Tennessee (41%), South Dakota (40.8%), Missouri (39.4%), Montana (39%), and Georgia (37.9%).

If they go their separate ways, the richest states would not feel obliged not feel obligated to continue subsidizing the dependent ones through the federal government.

 

With very few exceptions the richest states would lose most of their landmass and would not be able to feed themselves.
Oregon Washington and California would essentially be split along I-5. The northeast coast would be similarly split. Then there wiuld be small pockets around the rest of the country.
The red country would be under no obligation to feed the blue country.

 

So, the wealthier states, many with highly productive fishing fleets - as well as the wherewithal to import tariff-free goods like Monaco - could stop contributing via federal aid to Mississippi, Louisiana, Tennessee, South Dakota, Missouri, Montana, Georgia, and the other dependent states?

Of course, many midwestern farmers, now the recipients of Trump's multi-billion dollar welfare program, may rather trade with the richer states.

 

This issue was settled by Civil War 1.0 (1861-65). The government in general and the President in particular have not only the right but the duty to hold the union together by peaceful means if at all possible but by force if necessary (as Lincoln did). In short: The Union forever.

 

Do you support the right of secession?
We fought one war to defeat secession, & it was the bloodiest war in our history. I DON'T support fighting another. I think it would be wise of any state considering secession to also consider that as a separate new nation in the world of nations, most of our states would become third world entities with little to zero power to shape events in the world around them. The lives of everyone in that state would be negatively affected. It's simply NOT a good idea to secede.

 

- Funniest and yet, saddest, thing on this forum in a long time.

 

Are you referring to the red states that provide most of the beef, and poultry and crops that feed the blue states Just how would they starve exactly?
I think we should give secession a try, lets start with California, they are the self described smartest people in the world, why don't we see how they could survive and thrive under democrat rule. It is working out so damn well for the people of California already isn't it. They used to be the 5th largest economy in the world last I heard they are 10th. How did that happen? Must have been Trump I guess.

 

There should be a right to secede, Nemesis! If some state like California, for instance, is doggedly in opposition to United States law, along with our language, traditions, and willingness to pursue criminals and those who invade this country illegally, they SHOULD be allowed to "pack their bags" and GO! Why should they be forced to stay in this federalized republic if they hate it so much...?!

"Sanctuary cities"...? "Sanctuary states...?" WHO THE HELL DOES THINGS LIKE THAT?! People who love the United States?! Not in the least!

Not all of us are the kind of despicable, war-waging tyrannical oligarchs that Abraham Lincoln was....

. "It's MY way or the highway, except that you peasants don't even get to leave here!"

 

"Do you support the right of secession?"

only if the state takes their portion of the 20 trillion dollar debt, divide it by the number of states and that is their portion of the debt

 

You realize how easy it is to look up things you have heard to verify them instead of making false claims, yes?

California’s GDP for 2018 was $3.018 trillion or almost 15% of the national GDP, nearly doubling the next closest, Texas which narrowly beat out New York. [source] California beat the majority of US states in terms of GDP growth in 2018 and is expected to do so again in 2019.

As a share of global GDP it still ranks 5th slightly beating out the United Kingdom and under Germany, Japan, and China. Unless you are suggesting their economy has contracted by a third in two quarters — and that seems like it would have made national news... If you removed blue and purple states, the new Confederate States of America would rank #3 behind China and the New Democratic States of America at #1.


Really, is it trump that has caused his followers to become too lazy to look up basic data?
I think y’all were there long before him.

 

*LOL*

Yes, the President who kept the country together. What an icky guy.

Jesus.

 

I'll leave estimation of the "ick"-factor up to you. For me it's more like intense nausea, beginning at the toenails....

He "kept the country together" using military force, and got hundreds of thousands of people killed in the process -- purely because he refused to let people be rid of his overbearing central government, which had usurped power in a criminal way not envisioned AT ALL by the men who wrote the Constitution.

But, go ahead and worship at his shrine if that amuses you... most Americans who know NOTHING of either the Constitution or the actual history of the United States would slavishly agree with you.... Happy "independence" day....

."Genealogy department? Hey, are you SURE I'm not related to Abraham Lincoln...?!"

 

I assume each state that wished to go independent would have to take a percentage of the national debt. In theory, some states could end up setting off in negative equity.

Then what about currency. To control their own interest levels, taxation etc.. they would need their own currency. Have any states made provision for that? Do current states have it's own stock exchange, it'll no doubt need one?

An independent country would likely raise it's tax burden on the people because of it's national debt, how would they prevent population migration to cheaper states? A wall?

What about trade? If the US put tariffs in place, how do they secure the border etc..?

 

I've had the same thought.
It's time to start having this discussion.

Here's the real problem. If all you nice liberals lived on one side of the line, and all of us nasty conservatives lived on the other ... then, no problem. We could quarrel over who gets what with respect to federal property, etc. ..but we could have an amicable divorce.

However ... we are geographically interpenetrated.

All over the world, where two or more races/ethnic groups/religions -- I just call them 'tribes' , some people like 'primary identity groups' -- have been in a single nation-state, there is usually tension, which has often broken out into civil war. Where these groups are geographically interpenetrated, there is terrible violence.

Slovakia got loose from the Czechs with no problem, Norway and Sweden separated peacefully ... because they were not interpenetrated. Scotland will leave the UK soon, peacefully.

But elsewhere ... rivers of blood and forced population transfers.

Now the differences in the US are not primarily racial, but a real break-up would probably take a racial turn.

This must be avoided if at all possible. A good way to do it would be to start now, identifying the likely boundaries of Liberal Heaven and Conservative Hell. If this were done years in advance, people might start retiring to the areas of their choice. Or they could arrange house-swaps with their political opposites. (Serbs and Croats did this to some extent when their multi-ethnic society disintegrated.)

I believe a lot of people have been thinking about this. It's years off, however, and probably couldn't happen until the US has, either voluntarily or by force, given up its self-proclaimed role as the world's policeman. China won't be ready to take our place for another 20 or 25 years, so we've got time to think about it.

 

Still neither side of the US ideological divide can see how brilliantly Putin has pushed the US towards another civil war. Given the insane level the general populace is armed it could be a blood bath.

 

1. I support the right of secession from the US
2. I oppose the right of secession but don't want a war
3. I prefer a civil war over breaking up the US

Are these the only three choices?

 

Of course there is a very good chance that the Russians are doing all they can to stir up animosity in the US, and hope that there will be lines of blood crossed. Not a smart move on their part, but it's how they play.

It would be a historic tragedy if the US came apart .. a great weakening of the democratic forces on the planet. I believe that on the Right in the US there are very few people who would actually want this to happen, at the moment. But the country is changing ... I don't think you can even use the word 'America' to describe it any more ...'America' is dead. But the US has deep reserves and it will take a lot to pull it apart.

 

The US is already coming apart. And trump certainly represents the end of American leadership for the forces of good.

Nicely put. But it seems to be a choice of civil war or amicable divorce. The point is to choose now before there is no choice

I would bet that that we would even find one or two white-only States, if States were given the option to choose. The assumption that a country this big can live under one set of rules, has proven false.

 

Just think, trumpers, no more California. No more EPA, FDA, or Civil Rights laws. None of those nasty foreigners to deal with. Pollute all you want and everyone can drive a Hummer. Just give those evil Blue States the right to walk away. That's what you've wanted for as long as I can remember. The entire time I was growing up, I was aware of attitudes about Californians in the so-called Heartland [what an incredibly ironic name]. I never understood why they didn't like us. But I stopped caring long ago. So after decades of complaining, put your vote where your mouth is and DEMAND the right of secession for the States.

Make the 4th of July the day the nation formerly known as America decided to free the Blue States.

 

It's difficult to make predictions about the character of a US that has disintegrated into its components. All sort of ugly emotions and beliefs that have been suppressed for decades might rise to the surface. Anyone travelling in socialist Yugoslavia in 1985, seeing several hundred thousand mixed-marriages, all the official propaganda about socialist brotherhood ... might think that their ethnic wars were a thing of the past. But they weren't.
If you were concerned with anti-Semitism in Europe in 1900, you might look to France -- the Dreyfus Affaire -- or Russia's pogroms. You probably wouldn't have made Germany the top of your list.

There is certainly the potential for the return of overt racial feelings among whites in the US. Things that are now just quietly believed, by both white liberals and white conservatives, but not spoken of because of politeness and the pressure of official ideology -- might resurface.

Whites may fear and feel contempt for Blacks, but they aren't going to believe that they control the banks and the media. So a revival of overt racism that coincided with a severe financial crisis might see the re-kindling of overt anti-Semitism. On the Left this will be called 'anti-Zionism', unless there has been significant Muslim immigratin to the US, in which case it will hardly be disguised; on the Right it will probably just be old-fashioned hatred for Jews -- although the deep strain of 'Christian Zionism' among some whites will be in tension with that.

It's hard to imagine the mainly-white 'heartland' as being economically viable. I suspect it would encourage Asians to move in, and might even make an alliance with assimilated Hispanics.

The West Coast will complete its path to becoming like Central and much of South America -- wealthy white elites living in gated communities, surrounded by squalor. (In fact, it's already on the way.) If Mexico has, by some miracle, made significant economic and social progress towards becoming a decent place to live, we might see large parts of the 'reconquista' area seceding to re-join Mexico.

The wild card here is China, which would almost certainly want to cultivate some client states in North America.

Unless liberal democracy had already conquered in China by the time of an American break-up, it would be a huge tragedy for this to happen. It's just a historic accident that we had a Protestant settlement in North America, which laid a firm ideological basis for the creation of a law-governed republic with limited powers for the central government. And it's just a historic accident that they found a large unexploited continent which could be easily wrested from the original inhabitatnts, and one that was essentially invulnerable to invasion. It was able to be the arsenal and fortress of democracy, seeing off two major challenges to the democratic system in the 20th Century.

What a wonderful coincidence of history, that the biggest and baddest brother on the block happened to be liberal democracy.

We should not let this go without a fight.