Do you think any aliens know we are here ??

Discussion in 'Science' started by Quasar44, Feb 3, 2020.

  1. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, space cannot expand faster than the speed of light. Incorrect premise.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2020
  2. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    Measurements have shown that it does, leading to the theory behind dark matter
     
  3. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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  4. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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  5. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    Probability Mathematics forfeits the power of proof that is normally inherent in Mathematics since it makes use of random numbers.

    For what science and religion actually are, and the logical framework behind both of them, see my post in this thread: The rise of anti-science

    Besides this assertion committing a logic error known as the Force of a Negative Proof Fallacy (in other words, requesting that I "prove a negative" with regard to an open set [all of existence]), you are also committing a math error. If there is "zero probability" that aliens do not exist, then there MUST be proof that they DO exist (not just "high probability").

    No, to believe in aliens requires just as much faith as it does to not believe in aliens. (See my post in another thread that I linked to above)

    ... possibly. We don't know the bounds and contents of our own universe, let alone any others that might exist.

    Small does not necessarily mean insignificant.

    How do you know that this universe is endless?

    I never claimed that Earth is the only place that contains intelligent life. In fact, if Christianity (I am a Christian) is true, then it is technically my belief that intelligent life exists everywhere, as God (as defined by Christianity) is omnipresent.

    Okay.

    They WERE logical views (at the time). Circular Arguments are in fact logically valid, and so long as a theory cannot be tested against a null hypothesis (ie, cannot be falsified), then a circular argument is all the theory can be, no matter how much supporting evidence you decide to throw at it.
     
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  6. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Based on our primitive understanding though.
     
  7. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    How could you still believe in the bible if life is found anywhere else in the universe considering that according to the bible god created man in his own image
     
  8. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Except what we do know is that life can and does exist in places we previously thought impossible.

    I would say it takes much, more more to believe that there is no life in the vastness of space than there is to believe that we aren't the only advanced life in the enormity of space-time.

    We don't know space is endless, but we do know is larger than our minds can even comprehend or put into context.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2020
  9. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I think Einstein added limits - at least clarifying what was not previously known to be a limit.

    It could be that future revelations in physics will add or clarify limits, rather than showing how to avoid them.
     
  10. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I don't see this as a problem at all.

    It's pretty clear that Genesis creation and Eden are allegorical - carrying significant meaning, but not being literal.

    I don't see any justification for believing that we are God's one and only accomplishment in terms of life.
     
  11. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    According to the Bible, god created man in his own image to give superiority of man above all other creatures. Are you saying that man will also have superiority over all alien species as well? There is little doubt that if alien life exists, there will be many species much more advanced than humans
     
  12. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    My understanding is that the "all other creatures" thing applied to other life on Earth. It justified blood sacrifice as well as eating them, for example.

    Suggesting that phrase aplies to all other life in the universe (if any) seems way too extreme for a document of that age.
     
  13. Josh77

    Josh77 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It sounds to me like you are saying logic is useless, because the limitations it places on your thinking are the same limitations that lead priests astray.
    And your arguments on the size of the universe are silly. Even if we don’t know if it is truly infinite we do know that there are at least hundreds of billions of galaxies each with hundreds of billions of stars. The number of planets in that amount of solar systems is so mind bogglingly huge that it might as well be infinite.
    It seems to me that the existence of god is just as improbable as the existence of aliens, if not more so. I’m not saying god does or doesn’t exist, but I definitely won’t rule it out because I don’t have proof that he/she/it/us does exist.
    I’m not sure that your rules of logic are useful in these sorts of arguments.
     
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  14. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    I'm confused as to how one is "contradicting" the other... How is life being found elsewhere a contradiction of God creating man in his own image?

    Also remember that I, as part of my Christian faith, already believe that life exists outside of Earth.
     
  15. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    According to the Bible, humans are the top species. If life exists elsewhere then there is little doubt that life more advanced than humans also exists. There is the condradiction
     
  16. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    If life exists elsewhere, it could be more different from us than we are from plants - in directions unimaginable.

    Maybe it will be a planet covering mat of single cell organisms with a shared consciousness.
     
  17. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. We discover new things all the time.

    Sure, one can argue that the "supporting evidence" is "overwhelming" towards there being intelligent life elsewhere, but in the end, it's still a religious belief either way.

    It's like attempting to pull another white marble out of a bag that consists of a seemingly infinite amount of black marbles. For someone to claim that it is definite that no more white marbles exist inside the bag since the marbles we have pulled out so far have all been black would be a fallacy, as would claiming that there is definitely another white marble inside of the bag, even though we haven't pulled out and checked every single marble from inside the bag. Without a way to falsify the theory (test it against a null hypothesis), the theory remains a circular argument with other arguments stemming from it. In other words, the theory remains a religious theory.

    Agreed. We have no idea what the bounds of space are, IF there are bounds. You believe that this makes it overwhelmingly likely that there is intelligent life that exists outside of Earth. I share your belief, but simply realize that there is no proof either way. It is still ultimately a belief based on faith.
     
  18. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Is it tempting to believe you have the only marble in existence though.
     
  19. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    No, I'm saying quite the opposite actually. I am also saying that you are violating it in your argumentation.

    They weren't "led astray". The theories of science simply didn't exist at that time.

    No it isn't.

    Agreed.

    Are you using the word aliens to mean intelligent life of any form, or are you using the word to mean one specific form of intelligent life?

    That's fine.

    They aren't my rules. Logic is necessary in order for any argument to be rational. Any argument that doesn't follow logic is an invalid argument.
     
  20. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    If life exists elsewhere, there won't just be one planet with life, there will be billions of planets with lifeforms. The probability that Earth contains the most advanced lifeforms will be practically 0%
     
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  21. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    That life has emerged somewhere beyond earth seems far more probable than intelligent life developing the enabling technology to reach us and, more to the point, of caring to make the trip.
     
  22. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    Getting back to the original topic and assuming for the sake of argument that other intelligent and scientifically advanced alien civilizations exist in our galaxy such civilizations could well be aware that there is life on Earth if not intelligent life.

    And that is via using advanced space based, remote sensing technology to analyze the composition of our atmosphere. Given advanced enough telescopes and spectrometers etc an intelligent species could, in theory determine that Earth has an atmosphere rich oxygen and a surface covered with large amounts of water. They could also detect the presence of chlorophyll and other organic compounds associated with photosynthesis and biological processes in general.

    All of which assumes they have similar requirements for life themselves of course but given we have only one template to go off it seems likely that carbon based life similar at a basic level to our own would require similar biospheres to develop in.

    We are close to developing that level of technology ourselves - at least as it applies to other local star systems. A species only a century or two ahead of us could detect life signs at far greater distances. Not the same thing as knowing there was intelligent life here of course but they would then have to consider that up as a possibility. And its not the kind of signature we could hide either even if we wanted to.

    Then all they have to do is figure out a way to cross thousands of light years of space to find out - if they cold be bothered.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2020
  23. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    The fact that intelligent lifeforms exist on Earth tells us this process is possible (favorable event #1).
    The fact that we have no evidence of life anywhere else is not a reason to 'believe' life does not exist anywhere else.
    Mathematically we know planetary life exists in the Universe 1 out of a billion-trillion *5 opportunities.
    This does tell us the odds although not very good odds.
    If we discover life on another planet (favorable event #2), and now we have 2 out of a billion-trillion *5 results, this will give us new mathematical odds...but more important in these types of discussions, it will give us more 'hope' that the odds will continue to improve.
    As research shows the building blocks of life can exist in many environments, hostile environments, this increases the probability that life might be rooted outside of our Solar System, and, if it can happen on Earth it probably happens elsewhere.
    Like Carl Sagan said; "The Universe is a pretty big place. If it's just us, seems like an awful waste of space."
     
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  24. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    If event 2 happens, even if the lifeform is simple, then the probability of intelligent lifeform somewhere else in the universe will be 100%.
     
  25. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    I don't remember it saying anything about "top species". I just remember it saying that humans were "created in the image of God".

    Not a contradiction; a circular argument fallacy on your part. The bolded is an assumption that you are attempting to use as a proof.

    Secondly, how does finding "life more advanced than humans" contradict that humans were created in God's image? I think you don't know what "created in God's image" means...
     

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