Do you think that the Worgl, Austria experiment can be applied in America again?

Discussion in 'History and Culture' started by DennisTate, Dec 14, 2014.

  1. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It certainly seemed to work well back during the time of the Great Depression!


    http://www.whatcomwatch.org/php/WW_open.php?id=717
    What do you think are the advantages to a local currency?

    What are the dangers and drawbacks to them?
     
  2. Pork_Butt

    Pork_Butt Active Member

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    I was watching a documentary the other day that featured a small town in Nebraska, I think, using their own currency and our dollar as well.
     
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  3. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This is exactly what I am advocating!

    Many of us would find ourselves in something of a dilemma if more than twenty percent of our annual income came in the form of something like Ithaca Hours or Calgary Dollars......… but............… a very high percentage of us could enormously benefit if organizations like that were more organized.......... and have the services offered by members using a barter currency........ programmed into a database so that they could be more efficient?!


    One of the many uses that an organized barter company could provide for almost every major town or city in America........ is that barter currencies could be used to assist homeless people and the most extremely poor families?!

    Homeless people in an area....... could be hired by a reality film production company that could use a local currency to partly pay the homeless people.

    Up here in Canada the Liquor stores will only accept Canadian dollars....... so if a homeless person from Calgary went into the liquor store with Calgary Dollars..... they would not be able to purchase much of anything but......… there are many restaurants that would be willing to accept Calgary Dollars to feed a regular customer who they knew to be homeless?!
     
  4. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  5. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Here is one of the groups of people who I believe are in a fantastic position to apply the Worgl experiment effectively.

    http://www.politicalforum.com/relig...ations-should-print-their-own-currencies.html

    Large churches in democratic nations should print their own currencies.



    www.CalgaryDollars.ca/
    is a good example of how several dozen socially active residents of an area can begin what amounts to a second tier to the economy.

    The Ithaca Hour is an excellent example of a similar concept being applied in the United States.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ithaca_Hours




    The Ithaca HOUR is a local currency used in Ithaca, New York and is the oldest and largest local currency system in the United States that is still operating.[1] It has inspired other similar systems in Madison, Wisconsin; Corvallis, Oregon;[2] and a proposed system in the Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania.[3] One Ithaca HOUR is valued at US$10 and is generally recommended to be used as payment for one hour's work, although the rate is negotiable. Most North American churches have a desire to assist the poor and the oppressed. Well….. in 2014 efforts by a group of socially active Christians could easily transform dozens of homeless people into actors….. who are playing the role of homeless people….. and the specific efforts to help them could becomes scenes in a series of documentary and reality films designed to give the homeless people a job that finances their getting an apartment or at least a group home.

    Most of us are unaware of the Worgl, Austria local currency experiment that was conducted during the Great Depression and how successfully it was copied in hundreds of communities in the USA. As a matter of fact…… it looks like what these communities accomplished played a significant role in inspiring the USA government to alter the monetary system in many positive ways.
     
  6. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    This really belongs more in economics then history I would think.

    But local currencies have been in use throughout history. It may be something as simple as gold and silver bullion (study the Gold Rush era in everywhere from California and Idaho to Nevada and Alaska) to alternate currencies, like in Nevada Casino's and Disney Dollars.

    The main thing a currency has to have to be valid though is fungability. It also has to be backed by something of real value. Basically all currency is just a form of barter, I give you so much of this for so much of that. It may be corn for wheat, pigs for cars, or gold for computers. Currency simply makes this exchange easier because it has a standard agreed upon value. But anybody is free to trade in whatever they want. Sell your car for a set value of silver. Sell your house for a set amount of Google stock. Nobody will stop you.

    But to make a true "alternate currency", you need something to back it up other then "I say it is worth this much". Stock works in that way also, the owner of a certificate of stock owns a certain percent of the company that backs it. The value of the company goes up, the value of the stock goes up. The value of the company goes down, the value of the stock goes down.

    The company goes bankrupt and closes, then your stock is now worthless. Another company buys out your stock and now your stock is converted to stock of the new company per the buyout agreement.

    Heck, one fondly loved lunatic in San Francisco in the mid to late 1800's even made his own currency. Look up Emperor Norton.

    [​IMG]

    What kills most "local currencies" is that there is nothing to really back up the value. The only ones that endure have hard backing, commonly in an equal amount in US dollars and is equally convertable to and from US Dollars (or whatever the currency of that country is).
     
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  7. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Fascinating! I had never heard of Emperor Norton until reading your post!

    I'm Canadian and in my opinion the best films……. of any genre imaginable………… are produced in the USA.

    Jewish, Christian and Islamic scriptures could be reassessed for their potential value to centre some types of films around. Some of these projects could be at least partly financed through a local currency, organized barter and organized volunteerism?!


    http://www.politicalforum.com/relig...mageddon-could-bring-world-out-recession.html
    Artistic Hollywood style "Armageddon" could bring world out of recession?!
     
  8. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Well, if you notice my location, "Baghdad by the Bay" is one of the many nicknames of San Francisco.

    Emperor Norton was basically a crazy drunken bum who hung out on the waterfront. An eccentric, but for some reason the Barbary Coast in the day loved him. And every year or so there is a local movement to rename the Bay Bridge in his honor because of one of his Royal Proclamations:

    I have studied alternate currencies for years. They are nothing special, and anybody can make one. The only thing is that it has to have an accepted value to be valid. Probably the most famous that nobody really thinks about is casino money.

    Go to any casino in Nevada, and you will find that their chips are accepted pretty much anywhere inside the casino (and even in other casinos). Pay for your room, buy dinner, get a drink and tip the waitress, chips were used for all of that and more. And it was seen to have value because the casino that made them backed up that value.
     
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  9. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Fascinating!!!!!!!!!!

    You have gotten me thinking in a direction that actually may have considerable potential!

    Some type of casino chips…….. might just be the best way to finance where this idea could perhaps lead?!

    https://www.facebook.com/notes/denn...ician-the-film-series-concept/310416062401072
    Canada's Worst Politician, the film series concept?!
     
  10. Alucard

    Alucard New Member Past Donor

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    I don't think a local currency would be pragmatic with our Federal Reserve System.
     
  11. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I am definitely not advocating for local currencies to replace the USA dollar....... but I do believe that local and State currencies have the potential to decrease the burden on taxpayers to help many of the very poor and homeless.

    Ten states are discussing having a State currency as well as encouraging local governments to begin local currencies.

    http://money.cnn.com/2012/01/17/pf/local_currency/index.htm?iid=F_Jump

     
  12. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I am a member of Canada's Liberal Party and I wrote this up for them three years ago:






    http://www.politicalforum.com/canad...ar-liberal-party-volunteerism-hour-could.html

    A Liberal Party Dollar or Liberal Party Volunteerism Hour could.......
     
  13. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Would not matter worth a damn.

    More after this reply:

    More people looking for a magic wand and fairy dust.

    Remember, to have any value at all, a currency (any currency) has to have a percieved value.

    That is done in one of a few ways. Either it is backed up by something of known value (gold, silver, US$, Euro, etc), or some other form of real collateral (buildings and equipment in a corporation, patent of a high tech company, movie/music of an entertainment company, etc). Without something of real hard value, a currency is absolutely worthless.

    Think to the Civil War. While the US and Confederate currencies both took a beating, which took the worst beating? The Confederate, half way though the war it was already a joke, because the Government that printed them had nothing of value to back their value with. No industry, no capitol, mostly farmland that was selling a commodity that was of less and less value on the International market.

    State currencies would do no good, and likely cause even more problems. Help the poor and homeless? Give me a break.

    If for some reason California decided to make it's own currency, I would not touch it with a 10 meter USB cable. Give me good old US$, gold, or silver. Nothing else. Because I am not about to trust the valie of what I earn in wages to anything else. Might as well say that converting to the Mexican Peso will solve the poor and homeless problem.

    Sorry, that is a failure analogy. We will always have poor and homeless, the currency used will not change that one single bit. And anybody that think sso has been taking some bad drugs.
     
  14. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Losing a war sets in motion something that resembles infinitely high inflation.

    Even the north........ had a high rate of inflation during the Civil War because America's most well trained and productive workers were being paid to shoot muskets and cannons at each other rather than be involved in production of consumer goods of some sort.

    An increase in the money supply that occurs at the same time as a decrease in the supply of goods and services will of course create inflation but.........… not as much inflation as will occur when we lose a war which causes total devaluation of the currency of the losers!
     
  15. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Actually, it was not loosing the war.

    Think of it as the country going through a divorce. A couple has all their assets combined. Together, they may have $100k a year in income.

    But seperate? Then one may have $40k, the other $60k. So of course both find their credit line and assets reduced, because they are no longer a couple.

    When the US broke up in the Civil War, this was pretty close. The North was primarily industrial, with most of the raw materials and manufacturing capabilities. The Midwest (mostly Union) was the food supply. The South was primarily raw materials for textiles, alcohol, and few other natural resources. The North on the other hand had pretty much everything it needed. Wood, coal, oil, iron, copper, and the processing facilities to refine it into useable materials, and the factories to turn them into finished products.

    Yes, the North had inflation, mostly due to the need to fund the war. But the inflation was nothing compared to that of the South.

    When the Confederate Dollar was created, it was assumed to be equal in value to the US Dollar. But without the heavy industry and major raw materials of the North, there was no way that value would stand. That is why the North suffered inflation, the South suffered almost complete economic collapse. They had to purchase large amounts of war materials, things they could not manufacture themselves. Almost from the start their currency became almost worthless.

    Union inflation never went above 80%. The Confederacy on the other hand for most of the war had inflation rated exceeding 100%.

    [​IMG]

    - - - Updated - - -

    Actually, it was not loosing the war.

    Think of it as the country going through a divorce. A couple has all their assets combined. Together, they may have $100k a year in income.

    But seperate? Then one may have $40k, the other $60k. So of course both find their credit line and assets reduced, because they are no longer a couple.

    When the US broke up in the Civil War, this was pretty close. The North was primarily industrial, with most of the raw materials and manufacturing capabilities. The Midwest (mostly Union) was the food supply. The South was primarily raw materials for textiles, alcohol, and few other natural resources. The North on the other hand had pretty much everything it needed. Wood, coal, oil, iron, copper, and the processing facilities to refine it into useable materials, and the factories to turn them into finished products.

    Yes, the North had inflation, mostly due to the need to fund the war. But the inflation was nothing compared to that of the South.

    When the Confederate Dollar was created, it was assumed to be equal in value to the US Dollar. But without the heavy industry and major raw materials of the North, there was no way that value would stand. That is why the North suffered inflation, the South suffered almost complete economic collapse. They had to purchase large amounts of war materials, things they could not manufacture themselves. Almost from the start their currency became almost worthless.

    Union inflation never went above 80%. The Confederacy on the other hand for most of the war had inflation rated exceeding 100%.

    [​IMG]
     
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  16. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Phenomenal post!

    I have got to read this again now!!!!!!
     
  17. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Ant time Dennis. The problem I find all to often is that people seem to want a simple magic solution. But things are almost never that simple (especially in economics where there are a great many things to consider). And right now we are hearing earfulls because it is a major election year.

    America will be made great again, unemployment will end, businesses will move back, yadda, yadda, yadda. Lots of talking, no solution or even a proposal to a solution said anywhere. Just more empty promises.

    But a local currency? Without anything of hard value to back it up, I would not touch it. There have been tons of them over the decades, and only a handfull were ever more then a curiosity. Disney Dollars and Las Vegas casino coins are the only ones I can think of in fact that had any kind of value, and that was because they were 100% backed and even value with the US$.
     
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  18. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Disney dollars and Los Vegas dollars would certainly be interesting to me..... right now.... even though I live in Canada!

    My daughter was actually in a Disney movie that was produced near Antigonish, Nova Scotia. It is entitled.... The Circuit and it starred Michelle Trachtenberg.
     
  19. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Disney Dollars can be purchased at any Disney theme park, as well as at their stores. They are dollar per dollar the exact equal of US$.

    Casino dollars however, they are a thing of the past. Until the end of the 20th century, $1 casino coins (the same size and weight as an Ike US$1 coin) were commonly used in Nevada. Each casino made their own, but they were accepted across the city as legal tender, in all casinos and even many stores and eateries. I remember paying at McDonald's in 1995 with casino coins.

    But with the fall of coins in slot machines and the replacements by paper tickets, these have become a thing of the past. The last 3 times I had been to casinos in Nevada, they used more conventional clay type chips instead of the old all-metal coins.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I have been thinking that Hollywood or Hollywood North are in a great position to give a larger perspective to a modern grassroots Worgl Austria style local money experiment.

    It was amazing what a thousand USA communities accomplished during the Great Depression but......… Disney Dollars could theoretically get tens of thousands of communities interested in an amazingly short period of time.

    Disney could branch into something educational and it could be win - win - win win for everybody!

    I have been researching aspects of Judaism since I was a teenager in the '70's.

    I have the impression that from Yom Kippur 2016 to Yom Kippur 2017 is a Jubilee year.

    It seems to me that perhaps G-d is using The Donald........ (in spite of all his flaws) … to break Americans out of a seriously flawed thought pattern that leads to unnecessary debt and poverty.

    http://www.politicalforum.com/polit...donald-trump-can-great-president-because.html

    Donald Trump can be a GREAT President because.......


    … of his deep level of empathy with the greatest forces that are keeping the average American down!

    I saw two documentaries about The Donald yesterday evening. When I saw the part about how he purchased the Taj Mahal through financing arranged by about twenty different banks. When I heard that he had agreed to pay them a high rate of interest. I knew that The Donald had been guided by G-d to have a deep empathy for the situation faced by President Abraham Lincoln.

    http://www.michaeljournal.org/lincolnkennedy.htm
    Melvin Sickler:

    ................


    The Fed.......... is set up in such a way that it is extremely useful in causing significant boom and bust cycles..... which tend to break unions. To a segment of the population strong unions are one of the greatest evils in America and the whole world.
     
  21. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Have you ever been to Hollywood? It's nothing but a tourist trap slum, full of homeless, runaways, and hookers. North Hollywood is a lower-middle class part of the San Fernando Valley. I think it is most famous for a bank robbery 20 years ago.

    Disney Dollars have been around for almost 30 years though. And they have made no impact on any economy anywhere.
     
  22. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    True....... but if a town, or an individual for that matter were to print up a local currency.......and if it was used as a prop in a series of films dedicated to paying volunteers to participate in an experimental potential cure for many cases of cancer.............. The experiment could eventually save lives!

    A film of that nature.... that might be termed semi- reality science fiction....... because it could be set during the 1930's or 1940's or '50's........ could be a great way to make people more aware of what options are potentially available to them.


    http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=294534&page=41&p=1065934261#post1065934261

    Do you suspect that natural cures for cancer are suppressed?
    .....

     
  23. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I am proposing a variation of this to be done in my part of Nova Scotia.....

    through artistic re-enactments of some parts of our history... that are combined

    with the idea of non-linear time..... as Hollywood has so often played with.


    http://www.politicalforum.com/canad...nce-unified-theory-modern-world-problems.html
    CanSo Dollars... could finance a Unified Theory of Modern World Problems?!
     
  24. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If I was American I am 95% certain that I would vote for The Donald in this upcoming election.....

    ... but I admit that I am really worried that riots will break out in many cities on an even greater scale
    than is already happening.

    I am thinking that one of the best responses to this problem may emerge out of Canada......

    http://www.politicalforum.com/canad...tional-leader-canadas-conservative-party.html

    Dennis Tate for National Leader of Canada's Conservative Party.

    .......

    In theory.... local currencies could go a long way toward financing a series of films where churches and charitable organizations
    in Canada...... organize semi-reality science fiction films that are designed to alleviate the tension............
     
  25. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    But ultimately it has to be backed by something of value.

    Historically this was done with gold and silver. More recently it was by the value of the government or organization itself essentially using it's collateral as a guarantee of the value of the currency.

    In the case of Disney Dollars and Casino Chips, they are essentially a "Substitution Currency", having no value in and of itself, but exchangeable on an equal basis for another currency (US$).

    And then there are the countries like Panama, which primarily uses the US$, but also has a limited supply of their own currency (like the Panamanian Balboa, tied equally with the US$).

    So first, the subject has to be what is going to back this currency? Then, what use would it be for somebody to use instead of the current currency?

    And finally, how would it be exchanged? Are you going to allow full cross transfer to and from another currency?
     

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