Does California have a republican form of government?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by yguy, Mar 18, 2018.

  1. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    For those who don't know why I ask, A4S4 of the Constitution declares, in relevant part, that "[t]he United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government[.]" Now obviously the meaning of the final phrase is key; and while the document does not define it, common sense dictates the elimination of some possibilities. Even by a unanimous vote, CA may not, e.g., declare Moonbeam King, Dictator for Life or whatever. But surely we can get closer to the prevailing understanding of the term circa 1787. I submit this, from Madison's Notes:

    Docr. FRANKLIN. It seems to have been imagined by some that the returning to the mass of the people was degrading the magistrate. This he thought was contrary to republican principles. In free Governments the rulers are the servants, and the people their superiors & sovereigns.

    Now I don't know a lot about the goings on in CA, but I'm definitely getting the impression that increasingly, the people are not in charge - assuming "the people" is limited to those legally residing within the state's borders, from whom I'm now soliciting commentary as to whether federal intervention under A4S4 is warranted.
     
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  2. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    They shall guarantee means make it available.

    Doesn't mean the state has to accept it.

    As long as no federal laws are broken they can run any type of government they want.

    This of course will have parameters because of the constitution but yes, if you could find a way to make someone King of the state for life it would be legal under the Constitution. You could have a state run communist system as long as it adhere's to the constitution if you want.
     
  3. nra37922

    nra37922 Banned

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    Does California have a republican form of government?

    They get the government they vote for.
     
  4. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps you'd like to explain what exactly the US would do to "make a republican form of government available" to a state.

    James Madison and SC Justice Joseph Story seem to have thought otherwise.

    Madison, from Federalist #43:

    In a confederacy founded on republican principles, and composed of republican members, the superintending government ought clearly to possess authority to defend the system against aristocratic or monarchical innovations. The more intimate the nature of such a Union may be, the greater interest have the members in the political institutions of each other; and the greater right to insist that the forms of government under which the compact was entered into, should be substantially maintained. But a right implies a remedy; and where else could the remedy be deposited, than where it is deposited by the Constitution? Governments of dissimilar principles and forms have been found less adapted to a federal coalition of any sort, than those of a kindred nature. "As the confederate republic of Germany," says Montesquieu, "consists of free cities and petty states subject to different Princes, experience shews us that it is more imperfect than that of Holland and Switzerland." "Greece was undone" he adds, "as soon as the King of Macedon obtained a seat among the Amphyctions." In the latter case, no doubt, the disproportionate force, as well as the monarchical form of the new confederate, had its share of influence on the events. It may possibly be asked what need there could be of such a precaution, and whether it may not become a pretext for alterations in the state governments, without the concurrence of the states themselves. These questions admit of ready answers. If the interposition of the general government should not be needed, the provision for such an event will be a harmless superfluity only in the Constitution. But who can say what experiments may be produced by the caprice of particular states, by the ambition of enterprizing leaders, or by the intrigues and influence of foreign powers? To the second question it may be answered, that if the general government should interpose by virtue of this constitutional authority, it will be of course bound to pursue the authority. But the authority extends no farther than to a guaranty of a republican form of government, which supposes a pre-existing government of the form which is to be guaranteed. As long therefore as the existing republican forms are continued by the States, they are guaranteed by the Federal Constitution. Whenever the states may chuse to substitute other republican forms, they have a right to do so, and to claim the federal guaranty for the latter. The only restriction imposed on them is, that they shall not exchange republican for anti-republican Constitutions; a restriction which it is presumed will hardly be considered as a grievance.

    Story, from his Commentaries on the Constitution (1833):

    § 1808. The want of a provis[i]on of this nature was felt, as a capital defect in the plan of the confederation, as it might in its consequences endanger, if not overthrow, the Union. Without a guaranty, the assistance to be derived from the national government in repelling domestic dangers, which might threaten the existence of the state constitutions, could not be demanded, as a right, from the national government. Usurpation might raise its standard, and trample upon the liberties of the people, while the national government could legally do nothing more, than behold the encroachments with indignation and regret. A successful faction might erect a tyranny on the ruins of order and law; while no succour could be constitutionally afforded by the Union to the friends and supporters of the government. But this is not all. The destruction of the national government itself, or of neighbouring states, might result from a successful rebellion in a single state. Who can determine, what would have been the issue, if the insurrection in Massachusetts, in 1787, had been successful, and the malecontents had been headed by a Caesar or a Cromwell? If a despotic or monarchical government were established in one state, it would bring on the ruin of the whole republic. Montesquieu has acutely remarked, that confederated governments should be formed only between states, whose form of government is not only similar, but also republican.​


    Maybe you can tell us what they missed.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018
  5. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    The government of California is as much a republic as the government of the United States.
     
  6. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This supports everything I said, what part are you having a problem understanding?
     
  7. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    Just one helluva kidder, ain'tcha? :smile:

    The part about what exactly the US would do to "make a republican form of government available" to a state. Kinya help me out with that?
     
  8. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Here's what a former California state legislator had to say.

     
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  9. navigator2

    navigator2 Banned

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    California is FUBAR'd.............sadly because 40% of the population are actual citizens and not whack jobs. They get no representation. The big question is, does the US cut them loose and build another wall down the Sierra Nevada's fault line, or declare martial law to protect the ports? It's an interesting dilemma.
     
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  10. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Eventually the federal government will have no choice but to intervene.

    The U.S. Navy and Marine Corps have been training for attacking and occupying the capitol of progressive Democrats (San Francisco) since 1999.

    Pay attention at the beginning of the video of California's PC Navy (Peace Navy) consisting of liberal elitist sailboats trying to prevent the amphibious assault from taking place.



    What's really cool, there's already a GITMO in place in San Francisco Bay to detain liberal unlawful combatants and former members of the progressive state legislatures, Alcatraz Island.
     
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  11. Andrew Jackson

    Andrew Jackson Well-Known Member

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    Yeah?

    So what?

    Alcatraz ceased being a Federal Prison in 1963 (and now is only open for Historic Tours).
     
  12. Chester_Murphy

    Chester_Murphy Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I can't think of a place we are. That ended with the Civil War.No, damnit, I don't mean it ended when slavery ended. sheesh. use your heads. for those limited few.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2018
  13. navigator2

    navigator2 Banned

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    jackson.gif
     
  14. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You noticed in the video of a CH-46 landing with liberal unlawful combatants in custody.

    In a real military occupation of the Gay Bay that helicopter would have been landing on Alcatraz Island. The prison cells are still there.
     
  15. Chester_Murphy

    Chester_Murphy Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think they meant to correct any state's government which was not republican in nature, though they allowed for some variations of the basic form.
     
  16. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Obvious you aren't middle class living in California.

    It's really bad what's going on in California.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2018
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  17. US Conservative

    US Conservative Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Alcatraz would be a fine choice. San Quentin isn't terribly far off either.

    In either case, they could be sent by boat or even 18th century prison ship, under sail power.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2018
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  18. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I really don't have time to teach you the Constitution on a forum, you should really take a college course for that.
     
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  19. Chester_Murphy

    Chester_Murphy Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    A little help to know what a republic really is.

    Examples below.

    Examples below.

    https://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/repvsdem.htm
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2018
  20. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I know where San Quentin is, right next to San Rafel where the rich liberal elitist live in Marin County on prime beach property.

    Couldn't be more than a 15 minute boat ride from Alcatraz Island.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  21. Chester_Murphy

    Chester_Murphy Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But you say, "Gee, if I can do whatever I want in a republic, can't I smoke my pot"? I think so. Which is more free, a law or a recommendation? Well, I honestly need to look that up. I do think a republic offers much more freedom, or rather, liberty, than a democrapsy.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2018
  22. US Conservative

    US Conservative Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You're a Marine. Do you think the Marines would have a problem invading an area like San Rafel?

    Some of it looks like Pendleton.

    The close proximity to the prison would save on fuel costs-which is environmentally friendly.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2018
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  23. US Conservative

    US Conservative Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  24. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, obviously that tends to confirm my impression. That said, I'm definitely open to dissenting views, as long as they aren't too retarded.

    Which brings up a point I hadn't considered: can it seriously be supposed that chronic taxation without representation can exist under a republican form of government as it was understood in 1787?

    As far as I'm concerned it's a no brainer. The US has every right, legally and morally, and every practical reason, to insist that CA clean up its act. I suppose the question of invoking the guarantee clause in this case must be considered open, if only because, AFAIK, the idea originated with me; but short of that, certain CA officials can and should, IMO, be prosecuted under 8 USC § 1324(a)(1)(A)(iv) and, in the case of those indirectly responsible for the death of Kate Steinle, sentenced to death under (a)(1)(B)(iv).
    Actually it's pretty obvious your deficiencies lie elsewhere. :wink:
     
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  25. Chester_Murphy

    Chester_Murphy Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Why can't Californians redraw their state and add another? I haven't looked up the problems or procedures. Just a thought. There are likely enough taxes to form another out of the one.
     

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