Does it bother you that Trump has attacked USA's most important ally since WW2?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Cdnpoli, Jan 17, 2017.

  1. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    The problem is that not only Russia is the bad boy, because the EU does not better and there is fist against fist.
    For sure you look on Ukraine conflict and the allegedly look of Putin on the Baltics etc. I'm for sure no Putin fan, but by fact was it the West who ignored the sphere of influence of Russia on one hand and on the other hand had no problem when the USA claimed to have their won sphere of influence. Long before Maidan was still a more Western President in Ukraine and there were serious talks and thoughts about membership of Ukraine in EU and NATO ... and still there Putin clearly told "OK, but then Donbass and Crimea becomes Russia". No one took this serious ... and as bad as you can rate this statement, USA made such statements many times in other issues and no one had a real problem with it.
    Putin is about the Baltics only annoyed about some Anti-Russian movements and issues against the not small minority of Russians living there. Honestly, even by EU laws and values, these Baltic things and actions are often not OK. But Putting never threat to conquer the Baltics or even Poland etc.
    The general problem is that the Russian bear, if was calm and very peaceful, was by the West ignored and handled like "Unimportistan" at least. if showing his teeth, all are afraid and blame on him like mad with ignoring the own behavior.

    I am certainly not a friend of an EU as it currently stands and my reviews would fill a book, but I am not against a corresponding community of close friends and allies when made rational ... instead of a forced marriage of states with centuries old, own history and culture where the people in Brussels tell and declare that only they have the stone of the wise to know and do all correct and all who do not follow are evil nationalists.
    But I fully agree with you, as what Donald Trump gives and how he talks about the EU and individual Member States that will never work. The fact that he has deleted the planned free trade agreement is a blessing for me, because what the US wanted us to over there is already an insolence and even more an impertinence that the idiot in Brussels wanted to say yes).
    He will surely make a bilateral agreement with the British, if he will make it he shall do and who cares since Brexit about ... and the British will still "bleed" by their own to the EU market with their then necessary agreements, for it will not be as simple as the lords in London imagine it .
    Only bilateral agreements USA with individual EU members will not exist ... not even with the stubborn EU states in the East, because they are because of Trumps friendship to Putin not so amused!
     
  2. Capitalism

    Capitalism Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Did you ever think the EU made it worse?
     
  3. Capitalism

    Capitalism Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    [video]https://youtu.be/U4rZqCYEA7g[/video]

    It's the real life version of the walking dead, but she was a communist, and we all have seen what communist will do to their own if it furthers a goal.
     
  4. Merwen

    Merwen Well-Known Member

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    Conservatives tend to remember useful basic principles.

    Apparently Europe has forgotten many of them.
     
  5. Sandy Shanks

    Sandy Shanks Banned

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    On Friday Trump signed an executive order banning Muslims from seven countries.

    White House advisors said it can't be a Muslim ban because only seven Muslim nations are affected.

    In other words, because Trump didn't ban all Muslim nations, banning seven Muslim nations is justified.

    In response to Trump's Muslim ban, there are protesters in airports across the country.

    There are protesters in cities across America.

    Thousands of protesters are in front of the White House.

    Eighty-year old Muslim men were detained and handcuffed.

    Muslim children were detained and handcuffed.

    Muslims who were in compliance to all relevant U.S. law were detained and handcuffed.

    Federal judges in four states issued injunctions against Trump's executive orders.

    President Trump, It is not a Muslim ban... but is working very nicely.
     
  6. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    But the question is how useful and actual these principles are ... and here we have the case that obviously are too many people still with their mind jailed in the cold war area with all the evil and bad propaganda the West did here too ... yes, the West did too and not only these evil Commies did!

    Also ... it was in large parts the West who failed evil to integrate Russia into international relations and partnership which made out of so many other old enemies new friends. It is so easy to show the finger to the East and cry "evil Russians" ... much more easy as to use the brain and playing the ignorant idiot who blames always others for errors and bad things, but is total blind for own done BS or those of close friends and allies. Even then are coming some trolls who reason these own actions as valid due to US national interests and claim that they are necessary. Do these people also get in their heads that since the US shows this arrogant behavior too often, other countries say "OK, if the US can do, I can do too"?
     
  7. supaskip

    supaskip Well-Known Member

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    loo, this is great. Trump can't bully anyone. If a group of countries in Europe can get bullied by Trump, then there really is no hope for them.
    Times change anyway, the EU was a good idea immediately post war, but that doesn't inherently mean it continues to be the best, or even still a relevant idea in the information era.
     
  8. Mr. Swedish Guy

    Mr. Swedish Guy New Member

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    The EU also has interests and a sphere. It seems that our sphere conflicts with Russia's sphere. NATO and EU are seperate things.. Sure Russia can object to the military alliance expanding, but the EU is an economic partnership. EU trades with russia, EU trades with ukraine. Ukraine trades with both. More trade would have benefitted everyone. And ukraine is so corrupt that it would take decades for them to meet the requirements to fully join the EU anyways. They would just have a trade agreement. Ukraine used to be very friendly towards Russia, they trade very much with russia. If ukraine got closer to the EU, that would just mean the EU got more pro-russian. and a richer ukraine would mean more trade for russia.

    point being, things could have been so nice, but Russia is hostile. Maybe it is because they see EU and NATO as so intertwined, but for whatever reason they saw EU as a threat and not an opportunity. Very sad, because we would love to just trade with Russia, and I know they need to trade with us too.

    It is perhaps ugly, but it is very understandable that a people who faced genocide would not treat their former masters kindly. With that in mind, the baltic peoples have actually restrained their rightful anger towards the russians. There are still russians there after all, with many more rights than the baltic peoples ever had under russian rule. So give them credit for that. Just imagine what the russians would have done in a similar situation..
    What I referred to was that the rest of the world has reduced the gap with the west in economy, technology, military. Thus, that it is simply not possible for the european countries to be so relatively successful as they historically were. The rest of the world used to be much poorer and weaker. And no, the EU has not made any of that worse.
     
  9. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    Even since Trump the border lines between economic and politics are much unclear, both things are not the same and this is the point.
    The problem is that the EU enlarged towards East without using any brain by doing so. So the EU enlarged their sphere to the east and gives a crap of any will and so sure, the spheres of interest collapse.
    Problem is that the economic part of EU with Russia is no real problem about some restrictions of the EU by norms etc. which are not liked outside the EU. Problem is the political part of the EU which annoyed the British for example too, because here Brussels and the members dictate things like her majesty and demand that EU members have to follow, accept and not even to think bad about … but also neighboring states of the EU have to do too … including Russia.
    Ukraine is for sure corrupt, but do you think that for example Romania or Bulgaria are better? Not at all until today, but they are full members of the EU. EU took as member everyone in Europe who wanted or wasn’t fast enough to say no before becoming member!

    I have a big problem to rate Russia as the only hostile side here. Sure, they are not innocent of course, but you exclude any guilt of the EU and NATO as I explained them.
    In general I must ask why we accept the worst things done by the USA at least and become so upset if another one as Russia does then the same other where?
    Where are the embargos against the USA for their by any law criminal attack on Iraq in 2003? But if Russia does a by UN status illegal act with Crimea, then they earn a boycott!

    Nothing, because they are not Stalin’s USSR of the past. When over 1/3 of a population is of another origin then people have to think about to live together with view into future and not reversed to the past only! When 2 are arguing, there are always two, and not just one, who is somehow guilty.

    Well … this is a topic of its own at least and I must object, because the rest of the world did not vote to be poorer, but the EU did much too that they are.
     
  10. Mr. Swedish Guy

    Mr. Swedish Guy New Member

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    clearly
    The EU talks loud enough to annoy people, grab enough power to make them notice, but not enough power to actually assert their will. That is for both internal and external issues. The EU, as currently exists, is quite pathetic and inneffectual, a very unstable and frail structure. They talk loud to russia, but the actual process of deciding how to handle Russia rests with the individual member countries, and their conflicting interests will ensure that sanctions will fail eventually. Everyone knows that Russia just has to wait them out.

    For internal issues, the member states only want all the benefits of integration but none of the costs... schengen for example, all countries like free trade and migration, but for it to work well it would require a common EU migration policy and border guard, but no country was willing to give up control of that. The result is that is collapses.. same with the euro.. Everyone wants the benefit of common currency, but no one wants to give the EU the power to regulate their government finances. result is collapse. My analysis has the conclusion that there is too little EU.

    Who says it 'accepts' it? The EU didn't join the iraqi invasion did it? the EU didn't support the USA in attacking iraq. Boycotting your major ally for invading an irrelevant country far away, even if you don't like it, is a very different thing from boycotting a historically hostile country which wages war on your borders. Don't compare the two.. we both know it's very different...

    with how russia acts now, they might not be so sure
    the russian minority is a national security risk, quite frankly. Their presence in the baltic countries is the result of historical injustices, and while deportation is obviously to harsh, I actually think it's fair that their influence in those countries is kept small. Otherwise the baltic countries would just turn into russian puppet states. I think the baltic peoples have suffered enough from russia, that they have a right to exists as peoples, with their own countries. Russians can move to russia if they want, balts have no where to move if their country falls.
    I find that interesting, since the rest of the world had been poor for centuries and milennia before the EU was created.
     
  11. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    A correct reproduction of the current situation and why I am against an EU as it is. Instead of creating a strong economic and political alliance of independent friends, one wants to carry out the forced marriage directly ... and everyone who has objections here is, of course, an evil nationalist.

    The EU did not for sure, not even complete NATO members, but several members of NATO and EU did follow the call of Bush.
    If Iraq is irrelevant with all the oil, what the hack makes the Ukraine relevant? Absolutely nothing and not even the point that they part of European continent does matter.
    But more important, this general rating of you that Russia is a historical hostile country is at least nonsense, because it was made hostile by us and they did not hostile behavior! You have not to throw USSR and Russia into one pot, and so explain what evil Russia did since end of USSR against us Westerners at least? Nothing … but we plaid the teacher against them instead trying any partnership which worth to be named a partnership and aside this, any will of Russia if in conflict to us was simply ignored like coming from “Unimportistan”.
    And out so long time ally and idol over the Atlantic could do worst things in the world and got no consequences for it, not even serious objection of our political leaders.


    Not really, but even if, ask yourself why suddenly! Because if they did not, they were ignored! If playing the angry bear as since last years, then no one ignores them, but blames them again! Strange.

    They suffered from Russia nothing, they suffered from USSR and this is an important, but always ignored fact. And what makes them suddenly a national risk in reality? The hate on anything what is Russian out of the history!
    And there is also the serious question in the room, if the Baltics have at least really any right of independence out of history and culture. Sure, such a question comes particularly from some Ultra Trolls in Russia … but the reasoning for the independence is in core much lame at least.

    And what was the majority of this “rest of world” before EU at least? A colony of European countries, which was cut off from development, depressed, exploited and used as resource for the own products to sell which were built with the natural resources from the colonies.
    What did the EU later to avoid and improve the situation please… aside wasting money for development help which was trash like giving 100 trucks which become useless scrap if needing a repair which was not delivered to do together with the trucks?
     
  12. Genius

    Genius Active Member

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    No, it wasn't. The EU was formed about 25 years ago. It was strictly an economic move.
     
  13. Mr. Swedish Guy

    Mr. Swedish Guy New Member

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    The problem is... that if the EU is ever to be successful, it HAS to be more than just an alliance of friends. It has to be a union, meaning, that independence is largely lost. Donald Tusk said it very well: "It must be made crystal clear that the disintegration of the European Union will not lead to the restoration of some mythical, full sovereignty of its member states, but to their real and factual dependence on the great superpowers: the United States, Russia and China. Only together can we be fully independent.".

    I do NOT want european countries to just be increasingly weak and irrelevant on the world stage. Europe must be able to stand up to china or the USA as an equal, and we can only do that alone. For christ sake, even weak and poor countries like Russia and Turkey are bossing us around now, it's (*)(*)(*)(*)ing embarassing. The Eu is a mess and needs reform, but the truth is that without the EU europe would be even more pathetic than it already is. believe it or not but i used to call myself a nationalist, but I have come to the realisation that the era of european nation states are over. We MUST unite, which entails loss of independence, or we will just be pathetic pawns of the big players.

    ukraine is obviously important because it borders the EU, and because we were trying to include it in our sphere, and because we have security and economic interests there. nothing like that can be said of iraq, which was just a distant country.

    hsitory didn't start in 1991... The USSR is also russia. You know that a few decades is a very short time? We thought there was hope of a new peaceful russia, but it turned out we were right to take safety measures. Sure you can claim that nato expansion 'provoked' russia. Or, you can see it as it was lucky that the baltic countries joined when they still had the chance. That is certainly how the balts themselves see it.. Personally I don't buy the idea that russia is innocent and is being provoked. No, this is just the normal state of affairs for russia. geography, history, and internal reasons dictate russia's behaviour. Putin is failing in his domestic agenda, so he stirs up trouble abroad to unite russians behind him. Russia is not threatened, but they feel disrespected. Putin is playing on this to make the people support him. Russians feel like a great power again, and putin is popular. It's just a show.. a dangerous show though.

    you could view it like that. Or you could view it as this was bound to happen anyways, that russia just needed time to recover from fall of USSR, but once up on feet again they would continue traditional russian foreign policy.

    USSR is russia for most purposes. What good does it do to pretend that Russia isn't the successor to USSR? just waste of time..

    what happened in ukraine shows how dangerous russian minorities can be. Russian loyalty lies with russia, that's not a mystery. So for countries bordering russia, feeling threatened by it, to have 1/3 of your population being loyal to your potential enemy, is a very bad thing. It is obvious. Russia has taken on role of protector of russians, so that gives them reason to meddle in your affairs. bad thing also for a country that wants to be left alone.

    firstly, the european empires are not the EU.

    secondly, the colonies were poor even before european contries conquered them. So if they were poor before and poor afterwards... It doesn't seem as if europe made much of an impact in that regard. Especially with africa, colonisation didn't even last a century. Are you seriously claiming that the african countries were rich before? No, they weren't. and it is ridiculous to claim that the brief period of european colonisation is responsible for that. Africa was always poor. That's why they could be so easily conquered in the first place. africa didn't even have much infrastructure before colonisation.. Europe probably left africa richer than when they found it, thats the truth. Sure, their economies are designed to export raw materials, but it was more than they had before europe came.

    but anyways, to blame this on the EU is ridiculous..
     

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