Down with vegetarianism

Discussion in 'Member Casual Chat' started by Wolverine, Mar 17, 2014.

  1. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

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    So I dropped vegetarianism... for a few reasons listed below. I was planning on putting it on a 30 day time table, but screw it. I consumed chicken and pork chili last night.

    1. One person isn't going to make a difference on the macroscopic scale. There are exceptions to this general rule. I am not an exception to the rule in any sense of the concept.

    2. Health reasons only apply to vegans. Vegans avoid animal proteins entirely, I still consume the "bad" products via milk and cheese. Lots of cheese. Dear god do I love cheese. Especially mozzarella, provolone, and pepper jack. CHEESE DAMNIT.

    3. We all die. Vegans too. Even people who avoid GMO's (which may be a shocker to some).

    4. Reiteration of item #3. We are all born to die. Doesn't really matter what you eat. Doesn't change the inevitable outcome of the end of cognitive existence.

    5. Animals may be sentient beings, however vegetarianism is really a cop out on a purest level. The only real way to prevent animal suffering and to the greatest degree abstain from the animal holocaust is to go vegan. The industrial conditions to harvest milk and eggs are horrific in the way that animals are treated. Probably more cruel and inhumane that meat harvest.

    6. This means I will probably put in for a draw unit this year. At the very least, I ought to harvest the animal that I will consume. Putting a 180gr. bullet through a wild animals heart is certainly more humane than industrial meat production. I literally laugh at those opposed to hunting on animal welfare grounds, yet financially contribute to the terrible conditions in industrial meat production. If a person consumes meat, and isn't willing the pull the trigger to harvest their own, they really have absolutely no wiggle room in that poorly reason argument.

    7. I do not feel as strong as I was a year and a half ago.

    8. I have gained weight. This could be due to the cheese, or the beer. In this particular situation I am going to blame the beer....rrrr.... no. I am blaming the cheese. And the bread. Not so much drinking beer and not riding my bike 100 miles a week like I was before. It is obviously the cheese.

    9. I am an air head. Whether or not I was this much of an air head before I decided to change my diet, I cannot determine. Could the air headery be due to the lack of protein...?

    So yeah.
     
  2. taikoo

    taikoo Banned

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    I believe in being kind to animals by not eating them.
     
  3. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

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    Which is a good position to hold.

    My biggest hang up is, it doesn't really matter on the grander level of things. I believe hunting and fishing skills are more important than an idealistically ethical position.
     
  4. taikoo

    taikoo Banned

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    Dont get too grand, the whole universe will end and then what difference did it make?

    Intelligently done, hunting and fishing is ethical enough for me, not that I care to do it.

    I just for myself care to eat animals.
     
  5. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

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    Respect goes to those who harvest their own food. Key word, food. I do not have much respect for sport hunting, going out looking for the largest animal with the largest rack is silly (why remove the largest animals from the gene pool?!?!?!?!).

    Few things are as irritating as people who are critical of hunting, yet go to the supermarket for their meat. At the very least the animals in the wild live a happy and normal life up until harvest. Animals in industrial farm settings live a terrible life with a horrific end.
     
  6. taikoo

    taikoo Banned

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    Yes, that is the big reason why I say that one should be kind to animals by not eating them.

    Perhaps in a more enlightened age of the future, people will look at the "farm' practices of today with the horror and revulsion we now have for some of the practices of the middle ages or the Romans.
     
  7. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

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    Perhaps. I would be surprised though.
     
  8. Hotdogr

    Hotdogr Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I am a 2nd level vegetarian. I only eat animals that, themselves, are vegetarians.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Bacon transcends all time.
     
    Polydectes likes this.
  9. Troianii

    Troianii Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The biggest thing for me is: we all die. I have a good friend who is a vegan, and she seems to have lots of stories about why she became a vegan. Apparently her diet was so bad when she was young that she was at serious risk of a heart attack in her early twenties. She wasn't fat or anything, it was high sodium and cholesterol. So she cut out meat entirely, and in two years she was actually at an extremely low risk. But see, to me, that's just proof that the body is awesome - it can handle just about anything within reason. And then it gets to this: we all die, and food is one of the few real joys in life that you have daily, so why deprive yourself? I don't get the deprivation part. I understand depriving yourself of certain foods to get ready for swimsuit season or whatever, that makes sense, because you'll give up the joy of certain foods for now so that later you'll get the joy of pride in your appearance, and the opposite sex attraction that you assume will come of it. So I get that - but depriving yourself, because 'awww' just doesn't make sense to me.

    Another friend I had, this one from high school, gave me crap because I was wearing a leather jacket. She hit me and, I don't know, it seemed more like a weak attempt at flirting, b/c you know, it was high school and apparently that's one way that girls think they're supposed to flirt. Anyway, she was giving me (*)(*)(*)(*) for it, and I asked if she doesn't eat meat, where does she get her protein? Turns out she actually was having problems with insufficient protein in her diet. I think it was something about her body not processing tofu? Anyways, sad as the circumstance was I kind of had to laugh, and appreciate her level of honesty.
     
  10. Troianii

    Troianii Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Isn't it kind of weird that almost all of the 'majestic' animals that the greenies like are carnivores? :D

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  11. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    Going veg never worked for me. I got an awful amount of headaches and nervous discomforts from lack of meat protein in my system.

    The problem with going veg is that the diet emphasizes eating more grains such as bread products and dairy such as cheese. Unfortunately for me, I'm allergic to gluten in wheat and other grains and there is a limit to the amount of cheese that I can eat. Therefore, I have no choice but to get my protein by eating meat. Besides, it tastes a lot better than those meatless foods which tastes like seasoned cardboard.
     
  12. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    if your gonna eat meat, just make sure it's really meat and not pink slime...
     
  13. Gottheit

    Gottheit New Member

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    I hold the view that the meat must be present in our diet , because is a supplier of animal protein in the body
    no need to enumerate how many vitamins and minerals, contains this product
    another thing the ethical aspect of eating meat in the diet
    Pets bred specifically for that would be in addition to a modest diet of vegetables and grains
    In addition of these things animals bring us products such as milk, eggs
    But now I urge you not to what would have to give up meat
    Please do not hunt for the wild beasts of the forest , agricultural industry and farms provide us products with an excess
    Protect wildlife and wild animals
     
  14. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    Then please do so.
     
  15. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    Not me. I don't care what the animal has eaten. I like carnivores (most fish), scavengers (crabs and crawfish), filter feeders (most shellfish), omnivores (pigs) and most herbivores.
     
  16. twed

    twed Banned

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    sheesh. strawman. It's not about DYINIG, it's about having maybe 30 more years of USEFUL life. Being active in your 80's, instead of a useless lardass in your 50's.
     
  17. AKR

    AKR New Member

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    And if everyone thought like you, nothing good would ever happen. Every movement is made up of individuals.

    Apply your same reasoning to rape or murder. One person isn't going to make a significant impact in the grand scheme of things, but a bunch of people together saying they're going to do their part to make the world a better place sure does make a huge difference. Also, it makes a difference to the individuals, whether we're talking treating humans with respect or treating animals with respect. Each chicken you don't eat means one less chicken will be tortured and killed for you. Tell me it doesn't matter for that one animal. Now, apply that over a life time and how many animals are spared because of ONE person's choices?

    Would it be ok if I tortured or killed you? On the grand scale, you are insignificant. Me torturing and killing a few people here and there will make no difference to humanity, right?

    False. Just because you consume cheese does not mean it makes no difference whether you're eating cheese, or cheese plus a bunch of meat. The more animal products you consume, the worse it can be; and different animal products have different consequences. Your reasoning makes no sense.

    You're right. Well all die, so let's go drink paint thinner and chain smoke ourselves to death. What you consume can't possibly have any sort of affects on the quality and length of life before death.

    See above.

    So, rather than doing SOME good, or going all the way and doing a LOT of good, you're going to do NO good when it comes to the issue of animal cruelity.

    It's hard to say which is actually worse for the environment or animals. Your argument is based on the assumption that you and every hunter out there are perfect shots. The facts say otherwise.


    http://www.sdgfp.info/Wildlife/hunting/waterfowl/WoundingLosses.htm


    http://www.hsus.org/press_and_publi...erreporting_of_waterfowl_crippling_rates.html


    http://www.wildlife.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=huntingbulletin.hntbul8

    I have seen absolutely NO research showing that you need to eat meat in order to be strong. Go tell that to vegan and vegetarian MMA fighters, world champions of other sports if you want to make them laugh. The problem MAY be with your diet, but there is no science showing that you will lose strength or energy without eating meat or any other animal product. Right now, I'm bulking on a vegan diet and getting stronger. Many other people do the same. When world class athletes are not only abstaining from meat but all other animal products and still out performing many meat eaters, you might want to reconsider what the problem really is.


    The American Dietetic Association:

    http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/705344

    http://www.ajcn.org/content/70/3/570S.long

    So, you posted a reason that you just admitted is flawed reason? This kills # 7 as well. You don't work out as much, and you're not as strong. Hmmm, I'm sure it's because you're not eating beef and not because you're not working your muscles as hard.

    Do you actually think that a lack of meat is linked to intelligence? And why are you lacking on protein? How do you NOT get protein on a vegetarian diet?
     
  18. AKR

    AKR New Member

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    The diet doesn't emphasize any such thing. And you can't get your protein from anything other than cheese or meat? Who told you that? There are a billion other things to get your protein from. Being veg* doesn't require eating cheese or grains.

    [​IMG]

    Add rice and pea protein to that list (and hemp powder).
     
  19. AKR

    AKR New Member

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    Thanks for providing absolutely no science to back up that view.
     
  20. Gottheit

    Gottheit New Member

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    Don't mention it
    I'm wanted to say that wild animals need to be saved
     
  21. AKR

    AKR New Member

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    So, you eat things that make you feel horrible and put you at risk for dying early, and NOT eating those things seriously decreases that unhealthy state and risk of an early death, and the fact that the body can heal itself by not eating them is an argument for eating them?

    If you haven't lived off of a veg* diet, how do you have any idea of whether or not you would feel deprived? There are all sorts of great, tasty meals that don't involve meat or other animal products. Also, if eating a certain diet destroys your body and leads to an early death, how great was your life, really? How much fun are you really having? Personally, I love being active and healthy. I love being able to go hiking, snowboarding, running, etc. I love not worrying about whether or not I'm going to drop dead from a heart attack or other diet related illness.

    When someone asks why I eat so healthy - even aside from being vegan - and "deprive" myself of their diet, and they ask why I don't "live a little," I have to laugh. You place such a high priority on taste. My life isn't about tasting yummy stuff. It's about actually doing things and being healthy. I AM living. I'm doing things - not disregarding all else for the sake of tasty food. And you pose a false dichotomy anyway since there are so many great non-meat or animal product meals.

    So, not partaking in the cruelty and death of animals makes total sense for vain reasons, but not because you want to live healthier, with a higher and longer quality of life, or because it's so much better for the environment, or because it doesn't mean being cruel and killing other living beings? Really?

    What does this have to do with anything? If only meat contains protein, you might want to ask yourself if we even NEED protein, since millions of people are incredibly healthy and living long lives without any meat. So, either we don't need protein, or it's perfectly easy to get protein outside of meat and other animal products. And tofu is far from the only vegan source.
     
  22. AKR

    AKR New Member

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    Well, if you want to save it, stop using factory farms. It's a huge contributor to global warming and water/air pollution. It's incredibly resource intensive.
     
  23. Gottheit

    Gottheit New Member

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    Let's assume...
    Maybe hog farms and cow houses cause less harm of the environment?
    Probably we may plant more trees, agricultural lands and field on which are grow food for industrial animals already benefit the environment
     
  24. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

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    Well, torturing and killing me would negatively impact my life, would it not? So why would anyone equate that to consuming meat?

    Is it that hard to figure out?

    Actually, it does make sense. I am am eating more of X and less of Y, then the consumption of of X does matter. All of the vegan articles I had read and vegan documentaries/lectures all pointed the danger of cheese, and all animal products.

    Can you please provide evidence to suggest the meat is as toxic as paint thinner? Until you do so, can you refrain from being aggressively stupid in addressing my post?

    Vegetarianism is a cop out. Pure and simple.

    I would suggest attending some DOW meetings before pretending to be an authority on the subject. Hunting is necessary to manage wildlife. How other hunters shoot is completely irrelevant to how I shoot. I practice quite a bit. Have an FFL. CCW. And in the beginning stages of competing in 3 Gun matches.

    I out shoot most of my friends. How they shoot has little or no impact on me.

    And I could find studies that support any claim I want to make. Thing is, the science of diet is still in deliberation. You are telling me X, and I just had a new up and coming cage fighter in the office last week telling me his pre-fight diet consists of meat and and fat. No salt, no sugar, no carbs. Sound contradictory to what you are telling me.

    I am amused at the fact you are acting like Dr. Phil. If I am eating Y instead of X, and still maintaining an average physical activity, and gaining what, then what is the variable in that?

    no, I don't think that. But I do consider it.
     
  25. AKR

    AKR New Member

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    Wow, is that all you have to say? Do you really not get it? I don't know how to break it down any further for you. Is it that hard to figure out that if torturing and killing you would negatively impact your life, that torturing and killing other animals negatively impacts THEIR'S?

    How many of those documentaries and lectures said that cheese and other animal products have THE EXACT SAME danger? If X has one level and type of danger, and Y has a higher level and more types of danger, you cannot equate X with Y and say, "well, gee, X and Y are both bad for me, so the ratio makes no difference.

    Can you please refrain from calling names and act like an adult? And please learn how analogies work. Since when do analogies have to contain two or more things that are EXACTLY the same in every way. If you're not capable of comprehending the basic principle of the analogy here, don't insult MY intelligence. Shall I break it down for you further? If we're all going to die, then it shouldn't really matter WHAT you eat. You just tried to argue that, because we're all going to die, it doesn't matter what we eat. If that were true, it wouldn't matter whether you ate paint or ate apples, because we're all going to die. Think about it a little harder before you question MY intelligence.

    All of your reasons for not abstaining from some amount of animal products are a cop out. And if vegetarianism is a cop out, why not go all the way, instead of just doing NOTHING?

    I'm QUOTING authorities on the subject.

    Wildlife is pretty good at managing itself. Also, hunting is NOT required. Why don't YOU consult some authorities.

    http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/...ng/principles/deer-hunting-car-accidents2.htm

    Same goes for bears. Why are bears a problem in populated areas? Because morons leave their trash out for bears to snack on. Give out serious punishments to people for having easily accessible trash instead of killing bears.

    Well, then, you must be a PERFECT shot, 100% of the time since you practice on things that aren't alive. And you weren't speaking of just yourself, so yeah, how everyone else hunts IS relevant when you're talking about other people's eating habits.

    Not valid ones. Major medical and health associations all agree that you don't need to eat meat, but keep on pretending that this fact doesn't matter.

    It's really not. Show me the peer reviewed studies showing that you NEED meat in your diet. Show me the medical associations saying so. You're full of it.

    Uh, I never said anything about a diet of meat and fat not working. I made the point that people who DON'T eat those things can do excellent, so if you're feeling weak, maybe it's because you eat lots of cheese and don't exercise as much. Blaming a diet that other people are doing wonderful on is intellectual dishonesty or just straight up dishonesty.

    I amused at the fact that you blame not eating meat on you gaining weight, and then point out that you don't excercise as much and eat lots of cheese. Not only does that defy basic logic, but you don't even know the basics of how the body works. You eat more calories than you burn, and you gain fat, assuming your body is working properly and you don't have a health issue unrelated to your diet.

    And you didn't answer my questions: And why are you lacking on protein? How do you NOT get protein on a vegetarian diet?

    You're blaming the diet, but you clearly have NO idea what you're doing. Blame yourself.

    Less than what? Not hunting and not having factory farms? You want to save wild animals - go vegan.

    How does planting crops for animals benefit the environment? I just said it's resource intensive. So much more food must be grown to feed animals for eating, and so much more water is used. Plus, all of the toxic waste from the animals. How is this GOOD for the environment?
     

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