Dual loyalty? No. Single loyaltly.

Yeah, I like that!! If Government is loyal to me, then I have no trouble to be loyal to my Government. How about being loyal to my country? Is that the same as my Government?

 

In Canada, it's still alllllllllmost the same thing - mostly. Kind of. But in a good way.

In the US, Obama IS the Country AND the Government - so it's a difference with no difference.

[video=youtube;iiq5tnzmLBM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiq5tnzmLBM[/video]

 

I don't know about that Stu.

I have traveled to a lot of different countries and the people there tend to be very divided along such lines as religion, tribe, family lines and in places such as France, the U.K. and Spain there is an ancient division of people by way of aristocracy.

In Canada...need I say more about Quebec?

No matter what peoples ideology in the U.S....in the end everyone still understands that we are all Americans.

AboveAlpha

 

Where did I say " distinct "species " ?

 

In theory perhaps , but in practice NOT so.


Most Latinos/Hispanics are quite often treated as second class citizens ..

....

 

One's loyalty should first of all be to family , next friends/ community/immediate neighbours. (I've got very good neighbours. ) Respect to our Monarch - head of state. + the national laws ..

Fk those lying scoundrel - SOB's in Parliament . aka government. I'd like to see those who've failed in good service to the nation , i.e. the likes of Tony Blair etc., hung, drawn + quartered , as soon as they leave office.

Also save's having to pay the parasites exorbitant pensions . + other ill-earned benefits .


.......

 

Right here.

Your own post. Know thyself.

 

Not at all. Governments themselves can betray a country.

 

Quebec is an odd duck. But they're a lot mellower now than in, say, the 80's.

I'm not sure. We did have a bit of a secessionist trend start last year.

 

New comers to the U.S. were always treated that way, if you don't believe me ask the older immigrants? Compared though to what they left behind, the immigrants that came were the greatest advocates of the U.S. and its people...or at least in the past they were. My father worshipped the ground he walked on.

Look let's face it, if the people that came here weren't pressured to conform and adapt, the U.S. wouldn't exist today.

 

thx I stand corrected. (wink)

 

I am loyal to the ideals expressed in the Declaration of Independence because I believe in those ideals. The Ideals expressed in the Declaration of Independence (i.e. excluding the specific complaints also included justifying revolution against England) were universal and not specific to any country. The US Constitution attempted to incorporate those Ideals into the establishment of government so in a secondary sense I endorse the US Constitution that would represent a country. I have no specific loyalty to the "government" that often ignores the US Constitution in it's actions and that certainly ignores the ideals upon which the nation was founded. I don't have any loyalty to the People of a Nation that reject the Ideals established by the Declaration of Independence and was just addressing that on another thread.

Here's my most recent post in that thread to share my position:

Tyranny is my "enemy" and the "enemy" of all free people that believe in the universal ideals upon which America was founded.

 

Let's face it , , they had very little alternative choices + had to make the best of it, (apart from a few) most had already committed themselves , burnt their bridges and had no where else to go .

---

I was once offered a job with Westinghouse , Wilmerding , # but thankfully my girlfriend (later wife) persuaded me not to accept it. For a few years I regretted it , but after raising a family , I can now look back and say I've no regrets whatsoever for not acceptable Westinghouse's offer.
we'd never have been able to travel , as much as we did on this side of the"pond " as we've done.

Unlike your father , I certainly do not "worship the ground " I walk on. Apart from a couple of business brief trips - + an extended business training course in Minneapolis /St.P -


I was content in crossing yr country - coast to coast in a Winnebago - visiting the main national parks - Grand Canyon - Bryce -Monument/Yosemite etc . . I took the advice of other travellers - to avoid your cities , making sure to stopover in small towns -
The least contact with people , was what I wanted .
America is beautiful land , cant say same about its people. (wink)


.......

...

 

Thanks for your elaborate answer. First of all I had to look up the meaning of WASP = White Anglo-Saxon Protestant.

Being loyal to ideals appears a little idealistic. I would rather think loyalty applies more to living people than their ideals. But in a way I sense what you mean... the constitution, the fundament a country is erected upon is important, but as you say, these fundamental ideals are not always adhered to for various reasons as times change. Tyranny and cruelty and disregard for human rights and dignity have been committed by the same people who proclaim lofty ideals in their constitution.

 

I agree. Family, one's kids for sure, are at the top of the hierarchy list of loyalty.

I can understand you well. Probably not a few Americans feel the same way with their previous government. Alas, they all have immunity until they reach the pearly gates.

 

I guess so. Marlowe pointed it already out with the British government.
Through Edward Snowden we now know how badly some governments betray their people.

Could one say, Snowden is loyal to his country, but not loyal to his government?

 

I'd say possibly loyal to the ideals that founded his country. The government itself has not been loyal to those in a long time.

If Snowden is a traitor, the US Government has been behaving as such far worse than him, and on a much larger scale. Of course, Snowden has no power and the feds have it all, so the outcome is kind of obvious.

 

ALL...newer immigrant groups are and were discriminated against for a period of time.

This has happened to every...Irish, German, Polish, Scottish, French....etc...immigrant group that has come to the U.S.

For this to happen to Hispanics is by no means any different.

GET OVER IT!

AboveAlpha

 

The first president of Cuba, Tomás Estrada Palma, allowed a foreign power to control Guantanamo Bay. That's an example of a government betraying its country.

 

The United States currently has over 1000 U.S. Military Bases located around the world existing in just about every country.

Now some might view this as forced imperialism but the countries that have U.S. Bases make a good deal of money on them as allowing a U.S. Base on ones country means big money in U.S. Aid, Lease Payments and money made off the U.S. Personal that are there.

Also in the event of a disaster such as the Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami...the U.S. Military stationed in Japan provided rescue operations and medical ships as well as the U.S. Navy was able to conduct rescue operations DEEP into Japanese territory that was absolutely devastated which the Japanese Military and Government did not have the capability to do such rescue operations.

AboveAlpha

 

You don't see anything wrong with having 1,000 plus bases, depots and military outposts outside the USA?

 

I am not voicing my opinion either way upon your question.

I am merely stating the realities.

AboveAlpha

 

----- same old crappy tactics...

Gertcha ....

 

======

Its not for me to "GET OVER" anything . All my ancestors - thankfully - had the good sense to stay put and not migrate across the Atlantic.
====

May I remind you your post #703 said :

Tata.......

 

Call me an Idealist but without Ideals we're a ship without a rudder. We can never achieve an ideal world but it is still a worthy goal to strive for and only by using our ideals can we hope to move forward towards the goal that is ultimately unattainable.

I'm actually a SAR (Son of the American Revolution) so I had a "family" interest in learning about it and the Ideals that revolution was based upon. I hold the founders of America in very high regard for their expression of such lofty Ideals upon which not just government but also which individuals should strive to achieve. In the "Ideal World" every Person would respect the Inalienable Rights of all other Persons. A utopian concept to be sure and the founders of America knew it was utopian so they proposed that the role of government was to protect the Rights of the Person that would be violated by others. Needless to say a government dedicated to protecting the Inalienable Rights of the Person should not itself be a violator of those very Rights.

So when it comes to the founders of America I hold them in very high regard because of the Ideals they established and none more so that Thomas Jefferson who penned the Declaration of Independence that so eloquently expressed the Ideals. At the same time in many cases I have great distain for them as individuals because as persons they violated the very ideals they expressed. Thomas Jefferson, the man I most respect for his role in drafting the Declaration of Independence, was a slave owner and I can think of no greater act of individual tyranny than the holding of a person in bondage as a slave. Thomas Jefferson politically opposed slavery but as a person engaged in this horrific act of tyranny.

The government of the United States has been controlled by White Anglo-Saxon Protestants since the founding of the nation. During that time period the United States became an industrial and military giant but this was paid for with the murder and persecution of virtually anyone that wasn't a White Anglo-Saxon Protestant. Slavery and the oppression of African-Americans is well documented in American history and while "slavery" is gone the oppression and murder of African-Americans because they're not WASP's continues to this day. The slaughter, forced relocation, and tyrannical acts against the Native-American people during the 19th Century is so well documented as to be undeniable and that tyranny continues today. The history of religious persecution of "non-Protestants" is well documented. The Mormons and Catholics have each suffered acts of tyranny historically. I remember the 1960 presidential election where the fact that John Kennedy was a Catholic was the primary concern for most American voters and not his politics. The tyranny against Jews and Muslims by WASP's today is well documented by the hate crimes committed against them. Anyone that doesn't believe that Barack Obama's race isn't the primary reason for many to vehemently hate him today is simply not being honest. The War on Drugs and our Immigration Laws all had their origins in the WASP Nationalism of the KKK as they target non-WASP's in their enforcement. Both originated when the KKK, a historical terrorist organization, was at the height of it's political power following WW I and we continues those same policies today in our laws today. Obviously I could go on and on because the examples of WASP tyranny throughout American history is so well documented that it is both undeniable and indefensible.

With all of this I still support the United States because I believe in the Ideals upon which the United States was founded. I will always fight against the tyranny whether it's by individuals, groups or nations including the acts of individual, group, or government tyranny in the United States because I believe in the IDEALS established for America. I believe those Ideals are universal and will condemn anyone that violates those Ideals.

In the United States I oppose WASP Nationalism because of the historical tyranny based upon it. When I address Israel I oppose Zionist Nationalism because of the historical tyranny based upon it. The United States and Israel face the same situation in the future though.

In the United States WASP political power is waning as projections reflect that "Whites" are going to become an minority. "Evangelical White Christians" that are Protestants are already a relatively small percentage of Americans although they tenaciously hold onto political power in the Republican Party but their political power is slipping away. This "loss of political power" is being reflected by the growing number of extremist right-wing "Patriot" organizations that are dedicated to WASP Nationalism in the United States. Demographically they fight a losing battle but they fight to retain control nonetheless. The fear it that as they lose their power of the vote that they will attempt to replace that with armed tyranny similar to what caused the American Civil War where the slave states could no longer maintain the institution of slavery because of waning political power so they revolted against the lawful government of the United States.

In Israel the Zionists also fight a losing battle because demographic projections show that the Israeli-Muslim citizens will soon become a majority. When Israel becomes a "nation of Muslims" based upon a demographic change then the Jewish state of Israel will cease to exist, The fear is two-fold. First is the fear that the Zionist Jews of Israel will resort to acts of tyranny against Israeli-Muslim citizens as they lose their political power of the vote. The second fear is that the tyranny of the Zionist Jews will merely be replaced by the tyranny of the Israeli-Muslims because of their future "power" of the vote.

So I'm going to stick to my ideals because only those Ideals promise a better future regardless of whether I look at Israel or the United States or Iran or any other nation. Where tyranny exists it cannot be condoned, excused, or rationalized and it certainly can't be supported.

.