Dual Tier Minimum Wage?

Discussion in 'Budget & Taxes' started by NickL, Jul 14, 2016.

  1. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Addressing non-public education for low income children at the middle and high school level requires far more funding than any voucher system.
     
  2. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You are completely mis/underinformed and should read more. Here are some suggestions to get you started:

    "Class Warfare - Inside the Fight to Fix America's Schools" - Steven Brill - 2011.

    "Radical: Fighting to Put Students First" - Michelle Rhee - 2013
     
  3. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    If you had ANY argument, you would state it.

    I gave you specifics in a short, easy to read form. And, you've got nothing.
     
  4. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I have a couple of books with information, footnotes, references, and a bibliographies. Also a Google search for you. And I've pointed out that charter schools are not private schools. You might want to look into the results of the New Orleans public school system which went all charter after Katrina.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ew-orleans-school-system-ushering-in-new-era/

    If you are really interested in learning about charter schools you will do so. Why should I do your homework for you ??
     
  5. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Exactly! Why should you support ANY of your posts? Why not just hope others will all accept whatever you say?


    Your cite is far from all positive, indicates no measurable baseline other than the disaster they had previously, and mentions stuff many other public school systems do - such as school choice, lotteries, etc.

    Improving from 54% graduation rate is not all that major of an accomplishment. And, I note that they are still doing a pathetic job compared to other areas.

    Here's a post that shows the post-Katrina system still doing horribly - maybe better than they were, but still a BAD example for our nation. If you want to find a good example, I'd suggest looking at the locations that are doing a good job:
    https://wallethub.com/edu/most-and-least-educated-cities/6656/


    Here's a post that shows a good number of areas where that school system has serious problems:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ew-orleans-school-system-ushering-in-new-era/

    I don't believe that saying "charter" means the school is bad. But, we know for a fact that "charter" does not mean good, either. For me, the issue has more to do with how funds are distributed, how teachers are empowered (rather than being considered ignorant on issues of education), etc. In too many places, "charter" means funds are being sucked from the public school system in favor of some already advantaged population.
     
  6. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't really care if you support my posts or not. I've done my homework which supports my conclusions. Switching to a charter school system resulted in improvements in New Orleans. That's the bottom line.

    Why not actually read some 300 page books on the subject rather than rely on 300 word blog posts and editorials. You could even add Diane Ravitch's book "Reign of Error: The Hoax of the Privatization Movement and the Danger to America's Public Schools" - 2014 for comparison. Or listen to Steven Brill debate Ms. Ravitch on book TV's segment on Brill's book.
     
  7. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    No, the bottom line is that ANY change in NOLA would have been an improvement.

    Suggesting the change to what they now have as a solution for the US means comparing results with what the US has now. And, NOLA is a BAD example.

    I showed you data on that - something readily available that you could read in minutes!

    Why should i read your suggestions when the results you cite are do horrible?

    I do not want to know how to be like NOLA.
     
  8. Deckel

    Deckel Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    poverty is relative and quality is subjective, so you might as well be trying to come up with a solution to hot and cold.
     
  9. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Both poverty and quality can be measured. Quality, for example, is measured by conformance to requirements which is the basis theorem for quality engineering. Measurement of before and after is the only way to evaluate policy changes.

    You are arguing that competition does not result in the best products at the best value with regard to price. If that is your claim then you don't understand economics. The opportunity to enjoy a quality education is a basic human right and critical to the continued improvement in the standard of living of US citizens.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And I've showed you books which take a bit more time but prove my conclusions. The data on New Orleans compares the past with the present.
     
  10. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I am pointing out that NOLA education has been measured and found to be wanting.

    Remember? I cited that!

    Yet you keep promoting your ideas on the proposition that we should be LIKE NOLA!

    Sorry. I am profoundly opposed to that.
     
  11. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    And, i said NOTHING about competition.

    So, stop putting words in my mouth.
     
  12. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your arguments indicate that you do not advocate competition in the educational opportunities for US students. I'm not putting anything in your mouth.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I'm pointing out that it is now better with public charter schools than it was before with public schools.
     
  13. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That conclusion cannot be supported. The New Orleans school reforms are an excellent example of the success of charter schools. And there are many more examples of the success of charter schools and voucher systems in the referenced books that I've listed. Those references are full of data from across the country including the Washington DC voucher system that was extremely well received by low income parents but reduced in scope instead of expanded by the Obama administration which is beholden to the teacher's unions for funding the DNC from union dues.
     
  14. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I have said absolutely nothing yo give you any excuse to make claims about my opinion of competition in education.

    Almost anything would be better than what they had.

    You csn start using that example when it has proven something of use. So far, LA "progress" proves that LA still needs to watch what others are doing.
     
  15. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    NOLA is not an example that you can claim others should follow, because the system is not successful.

    No state can possibly be satisfied by the results of NOLA's system. Every state should be looking elsewhere - including LA.
     
  16. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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  17. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    You don't need two separate school systems to achieve something better? Everything that a charter school supposedly is can be accomplished in a district school. If a charter school system, sans the competitive funding, is so great then why not make all public education the same?

    This is off-topic to this thread...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Maybe so kids can learn with equipment and technology from the 21st century!
     
  18. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Why do we "need" multiple cell phone manufacturers ??

    Conversations often dither off in different directions. There is nothing wrong with that.
     
  19. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is an improvement over what preceded it. And the true judge of whether it has been successful or not are the parents and students of the charter schools (or any school) themselves. They vote with their vouchers.
     
  20. Iriemon

    Iriemon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We do have different tiers. It used to be there was a separate MW for workers under 18. It was modified a bit, and the law now reads:

    The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) requires a minimum of not less than $4.25 per hour for employees under 20 years of age during their first 90 consecutive calendar days of employment with an employer. After 90 days of employment, or when the worker reaches age 20 (whichever comes first), the worker must receive the minimum wage.

    Also, certain jobs, like babysitting and tipped employees, are not covered under the FLSA. And: "Certain full-time students, student learners, apprentices and workers with disabilities may be paid less than the minimum wage under special certificates from the Secretary of Labor. This is commonly referred to as the sub-minimum wage."

    There are other exceptions, such as internships, in which now wage or sub-MW can be applied. In my experience these exceptions are often abused by employers who pay sub-MW wages under the guise that they are "interns".

    https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/youthlabor/wages
     
  21. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    There can be many reasons for a parent to select a school for their kids. As you point out, one can be cost. Another might be proximity. Another might be the qusaity of education. Another one is whether the school teaches a particular religion. Another could be that it has the dominate football team.

    I cited an evaluation of education for you.

    Another place to look is that colleges and universities have an evaluation of most US high schools that they use when selecting their freshman class. Obviously, a GPA at one high school is not necessarily equivalent to the same GPA in another high school.

    I am more interested in that kind of rating - a real analysis of academic quality. Having the most popular local high school is of little interest if it doesn't perform academically. And, i will give little value to examples from schools that are not performing academically.

    So, i do not say much about your competition thing. The system could be popular and still be pathetic.
     
  22. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The parents are certainly capable of making rational decisions on the education of their children. The more options the better. And their are certainly examples of high schools with both high academic standards and high athletic achievements. So much the better.
     
  23. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Again and again, i do not care until they come up with a winning product.

    We already have highly successful public schools.

    It is OK in the US for LA to ignore the successful techniques of these public schools, but I will oppose using LA as an example while they struggle at a sub par level, demonstrating that they have proved nothing so far.
     
  24. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What's wrong with having multiple winning products and giving the parents of US students the means and discretion to choose among them ??
     
  25. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    So far, you have no winning product. Remember my cite?

    And, you seem to think that choice is some new idea that others don't have. Few places with adequate population offer no choice. Public education systems can offer significant choice. Ours does here in Seattle.
     

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