Dudd Vs Phony

Discussion in 'Australia, NZ, Pacific' started by truthvigilante, Aug 11, 2013.

  1. DominorVobis

    DominorVobis Banned at Members Request

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    Eloquently put, I agree totally and also that it would be very arrogant to think it won't happen.
     
  2. garry17

    garry17 Well-Known Member

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    Well thought out post, I am glad to see people who are not simply objectionist but are considerate of differences regardless who is correct...

    Again good post.

    Yes, I realise what you are trying to say. I will point out why this argument does not apply... Fact is capitalism counts on full employment, wages and costs do not matter to capitalism, as in socialism or communism as long as it is the predominant system without competition. You are looking to capitalism as being part of an ever-changing world in competition of other systems. Inflation and wages increasing are irrelevant as they are picked up due to the fact all must go through. Individual increases in wealth mean more can be claimed by the system.

    At present, the system is corrupted by outside sources, such as unions (although, they are simply speeding the system to the ultimate conclusion), governments and other nations of different ideals. Bidding wars for labour, product and custom is the basis that capitalism lives on. The fact is that while the system is predominantly the only system the strong will rise to the top. This gives the corporations the power to demand what they want. You assume that the supply and demand system is important to capitalism as a root, but it is actually only important to the point of necessity to produce. That is if somebody wants the product it will be produced, if nobody wants it then it dies. However, once a product or service is required (regardless of demand) the supply and demand is irrelevant as long as it remains necessary. The supply and demand only applies in capitalism to price the products needed to produce. Capitalism is hell bent on convincing the demand it requires product it does not need.

    I know we will differ in many aspects of this but I think the problem is that you look to capitalism as it stands in the world today. The problem is that capitalism is being controlled by government and unions to the detriment of its own system which either prolongs (as government) advancement or delays (as in unions) progress.

    Ideally for capitalism equality is necessitated across the globe which is why many object to the system and look to other ways. China in the most exciting example at the present time, while opening its doors to trade in capitalistic society they remain communist ruled. Obviously China and many see the problems associated and that one system will eventually swallow the other. So China has decided to change its form of governance and trade to a more progressive and sustainable system. The big question is "what too?" Many speculate but truth is China is playing close to the chest, and moving very slowly. This is a problem for them because if they move TOO slow capitalism will swallow them, TOO fast and their entire system will collapse. They know this and they are not dumb so looking over the pond to watch their advancement is interesting and hopefully productive for all.
    Look back to great moments in history of great advancement in human kind... Money, work or simply wishing to advance one’s self have no incentives for progress. Humans progressed through necessity. Nothing was produced when people were comfortable or could survive no matter how hard it was. People produced progress when survival was on detriment. Socialist economies have very little motivator for progress and the examples are USSR and China as standouts. If you understand human psyche you would understand that change is not necessary when you can survive. Socialism provides fair opportunity for everybody to survive the same, so looking to advance above current situation is slow and wasteful. Socialism cannot survive with waste so advancement is just above stagnant.

    Capitalism provides differences in that it does not need to provide fairness and it does not need to treat all equally. Capitalism actually thrives on placing many at the bottom of the heap so invention, innovation and progress can come. So in other words, while capitalism is no better than socialism for progress it places many in a position detriment making them pursue a survival ideal. This you might say is why Unemployment is paramount to the cause but the fact is unemployment removes units (yes people) from the capitalistic system unable to contribute to the capitalistic system. The best is to have them employed but unable to meet the cost thus Unions are hurting capitalism at its core.
    Actually you would be surprised. I am amazed at how people think poverty and depredation are better today than previous. They are not, they are simply better hidden today and before you comment on that, understand capitalism demands these issues to survive. Ever heard of the working POOR, they are the ideal of capitalism. People within the system but cannot survive. This is what Capitalism predominantly demands, Marx and Engels would be appalled at the way their alternative system was corrupted for failure as they realised early that this capitalism would fail due to one thing... I will get back to that.

    No it is not.

    Capitalism MUST end, a new form MUST be introduced. Socialism and Communism is not an answer so what is???

    Capitalism was set to fail due to three simple words.
    "CAPITALISM MUST GROW"
    If you think about it Capitalism cannot grow exponentially. That is why larger populations, increases in market share and simply demanding all to be a part of it will eventually implode it. While nations continue to ignore these facts they will continue to bolster the system. It will only change when the need to SURVIVE is apparent. Then you look to hastily thought through systems that will generally fail due to lack of understanding that economic systems actually have no concern for human life.

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    Of course you agree, you are still stuck in the time warp of the 40's and 50's
     
  3. DominorVobis

    DominorVobis Banned at Members Request

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    Funny thing, I agree with you too on just about everything except your opinion of me. Que Sera Sera
     
  4. aussiefree2ride

    aussiefree2ride New Member

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    Some good posts here. This is a bit off track, but assuming our reliance on an expansionist economy, can be viewed as an obstacle to humane, global population control, what are the suggestions for a system that would cope best with a diminishing population?
     
  5. DominorVobis

    DominorVobis Banned at Members Request

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    I don't think that question is anymore off track then we already are, but being off track is more the rule here then the exception. It is good though to see you thinking outside the circle.

    Most of the problems with "Capitalism" have been covered. Honestly, if I could see a viable future for Capitalism I would be its greatest proponent, as long as we could still address human rights, our social responsibilities for the less abled, address the environmental issues and move in a more sustainable direction.

    The problem is, as Garry so eloquently said, Capitalism has no room for those things, even those displaced from the system (the unemployed, even those sacked for a companies financial benefit must be "removed" from the system. The system cannot survive if it has to carry nonproductive members.

    The only way the world's population is going to decrease is by war, a major natural catastrophe or some major draconian type of birth control. We therefore must consider that it won't decrease hopefully.

    Capitalism's major fault IMHO is not those pointed out, although they are what causes it, the catalyst I believe is that Capitalism as we know it needs something for nothing to work.

    Throughout the history of Capitalism, there has always been "something for nothing". Land could be conquered, slave labour, dumping of waste etc.

    Once mineral resources could be found by walking around and kicking a few rocks, it could be paid for by a few trinckets or a handful of beads, or a few bullets, it could be mined at the cost of a few whips, some chains and a bag or two of corn meal. But things have changed, we grew up.
     
  6. aussiefree2ride

    aussiefree2ride New Member

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    All of the negatives you mentioned, and more, have not only been present in communist / socialist societies, but have been vastly more prolific, than in capitalist societies.
    On the matter of global population, if we can`t find a humane way to regulate / contain human population, within an environmentally sustainable envelope, the human race can never call itself civilised. Future doesn't look to rosy.
     
  7. DominorVobis

    DominorVobis Banned at Members Request

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    Aussie, I agree with you 100%. We will survive, I think, but the sooner we admit it and start seeking an alternate, the broader range of solutions.
     
  8. aussiefree2ride

    aussiefree2ride New Member

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    We can`t afford to not seek alternate solutions to all issues. We can less afford to take a wrong turn, follow impractical agendas, reverse progress.
     
  9. garry17

    garry17 Well-Known Member

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    Well, so be it.

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    Well, so be it.
     

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