Dudd Vs Phony

Discussion in 'Australia, NZ, Pacific' started by truthvigilante, Aug 11, 2013.

  1. DominorVobis

    DominorVobis Banned at Members Request

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    You love garbage, I never said the things you said I said, I DARE YOU TO SHOW ME ONE QUOTE YOU SAID I MADE, this is utter garbage.

    Take for instant where I said about the gov. buying back the homes. In my first post I said about being able to sell the homes back to the gov. department. In your reply you asked, "Sell back to who", huh, I had already said "to who". Then when I said it again you said I changed it. Then you said I said that they could sell it to someone who already had their allotment, I never said that. It would be easy for an intelligent person to see that I meant it was to be sold back to the department to re-allocate. NOBODY is getting anything for FREE according to what I said, to say so as you did is an outright LIE, you have NO COMEBACK except to LIE about what I said. Having to repay for your so F@#$ing called FREEE HOME is in my equation, you know it, it would work, so you LIED. I did say a few may not be able to pay back, those would also under todays housing situation, be entitled to rent assistance or a public house. Either way they are costing us, this however is or could be their own home, something that will make lot of them strive harder.

    My idea is about "reasonability", it's ABOUT INCENTIVE, it's about A FAIR GO, it's not about ME or YOU, it's about people, please debate me, but please do not MISQUOTE me or LIE.
     
  2. DominorVobis

    DominorVobis Banned at Members Request

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    My first post ...

    Your first reply

    Here you say
    to
    as I said

    Then you said
    To the same department, as I said in my first post.

    Then you said
    I actually went to lengths NOT TO DISCRIMINATE.
    If each person is getting it, how on earth am I discriminating.

    then you say
    Wrong, I said
    What I am saying, is the exact opposite from what you said I said.
    Then in yuour next reply
    you say
    I never said that, it's a delibeate misquote. I said
    Never mentioned
    or
    I did say
    I didn't say
    I didn't say
    in those words, but I do believe evrybody does deserve a chance at the opportunities available in Australia.
    Where the hell did I say
    I did say everyone, so even people with high IQs who live in mansions would also get their allocated allotment. Again you lied.
    How on earth you came to this belief
    Well I thought about it and I cannot for the life of me see how an 18 year old boy in Mt Druitt has a better opportunity to go to school, do well, get tutors to help him, have parents who will coach and support him, than an 18 year old doctors son from Woolarah. Please explain it tome since you are a thinker.

    You said
    Where, when, I admire people with bigger houses, cars and holidays if they have worked for them, contributed to society then they deserve them. It's all about working harder. It's all about contributing, and it's about a "Fair Go".
    You said
    Where on earth did you drag that vomit up from. I never said ANYTHING remotely like that. SHEESH
    I dont have a welfare mentality as you stated
    It is the welfare mentality I am trying to get rid of.

    Then you said in tour next post, yes I know this is getting repeatitive, that's because you keep repeating the same lies.
    No you are not, I said this in my first post which was followed by your saying
    which shows you only see what you want to see, when it suits your argument.
    Then you said
    I changed NOTHING, I said that in post number ONE.

    I could go on and on destroying your argument because it is non-existent and make believe but I do have other things to do.
     
  3. garry17

    garry17 Well-Known Member

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    Obviously, you have not read the post, I quoted you word for word. Funny enough you want to hide from your own words...

    You really are obtuse...
    Your words not mine...
    Again. For such a 'Gifted' person with three supposed degrees, your lies are particularly precious

    From your first post


    As demonstrated above. now you create a strawman and lie about your own comments put to you.

    :roflol: :roflol: No you did not, I said they could not sell it to somebody who already had an allotment as you have already given them an allotment, why would they want to buy another one??? :roflol: :roflol:

    Not true at all, Your assumption that selling through a government agency and back to a government agency are completely different. Classic example for the professional proclaimed among us is:- YOU SELL YOUR HOUSE THROUGH A REAL ESTATE AGENCY. Does that mean you sell it TO the real estate agency??? According to you any intelligent person would see that to be the case... :roflol: :roflol:

    Yes, you did say ‘give’ and then you want to buy the houses back at a profit Again something for nothing...


    No it is not, you are using government money to give people land and houses and then buying them back at a profit. You did include a HECS( if you actually know anything about this) payment for those who want to work hard and try and get ahead but for those who are on welfare you simply want to stop paying them rental assistance... SO NO your claim to have accounted for such has not been accounted for, and Thus the lie is yours.


    This also is untrue, but to address this point, why would they work harder when they already have something for nothing??? Why would they work to buy a roof over their head as they already know that if they do nothing the government will give them one. You say there are other things, but you want to be fair and give everybody the same so all people need to do is wait it out…
    If you want a debate stop pretending to be indignant when your stupidity is pointed out to you. If you want a debate stop lying about what you say yourself. I have not misquoted you once but you have lashed out rather than set the record straight that is not a debate nor is it an attempt to debate.

    Your IDEA is simple communism with a twist because it did not work before. YOUR IDEA removes any incentive to improve life simply to find ways to bludge on others but it losses all comprehension that if everybody simply sits on the ARSE and waits for the government to give them everything, there will be nobody to pay for that welfare mentality.

    Want a debate??? No, you simply want to deflect of the fact your party is in turmoil and you have nothing really worth bringing to the table...
     
  4. garry17

    garry17 Well-Known Member

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    HE said SHE said THEY said... Oh you are the victim aren't you? I answered these comments in the above, if your too gifted to create the debate, don't complain when you have nothing.

    Now, I know you so intelligent and gifted but due to the fact the comments of discrimination were pointed to a different subject you raised during your own comments I would suggest you decide what you want to discuss OR debate. Either the equal opportunity of all or the housing bubble being created... Up to you.

    As noted above, BUT if you want to make those who work pay for something and simply reduce welfare for those who don't, I am guessing your giftedness will work it out.
    Yes I must say, what a misquote that was. GIFTED with INTELLEGENCE???? I would say not... THREE DEGREES??? I would say not...
    What you are saying is that everybody does not have the same opportunity in your opinion due to personal circumstances and should be proffered more opportunity to the point of giving them it and discriminating against those who work for that opportunity
    Which is what you believe. AS QUOTED .

    Really??? Is this a real person or simply a small minded person who is unable to comprehend anything that does not agree with them??? At no point have I stated this is a quote from you... Create strawmen or what???
    Destroying my argument??? This clearly demonstrates how intellectual you believe yourself and reality... So far you have lied and changed your own statements and perfectly honestly this post of yours clearly demonstrates misquotes and misleading lies of yours...

    No you pretend you want to debate, but all you have is strawman arguments.
     
  5. DominorVobis

    DominorVobis Banned at Members Request

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    OK you win, I'm a commo moron and your a f#$%ing genius, you must be to derive what you have from what I have said. So why would I argue with you, you know everything oh wise one. I bow before your intelligence. Barf.
     
  6. garry17

    garry17 Well-Known Member

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    So you have nothing and you complain you want to debate... Simply demonstrates your claims to be exactly what they are, BS.

    When you decide to discuss or debate then maybe your worth considering, but after this performance... Speaks highly of yourself... Not good...
     
  7. DominorVobis

    DominorVobis Banned at Members Request

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    For the dummies I am reposting my original post but for the imbeciles and LNP supporters (no they are not the same thing, imbeciles have ideas) I will explain my reasoning. The original post was just a rough idea I threw in for intelligent debate but the only response I got was from a one eyed LNP supporter who thinks that the world wants to go on welfare and eat his families food. News flash ... very few people want to go on welfare.

    There are 3 things that we should provide to everyone, regardless of station, wealth or position. Food, shelter and medicine. This is just to remain as human, to deprive a soul of these is in my opinion, wrong. You could add education to the list if you want your country to keep up with the world.

    People become disallusioned with society when society forgets them, and we tend to forget those that for one reason or another, are on the bottom of the social ladder.

    A large proportion of those on welfare are aged, pensioners, senior citizens make a large proportion of welfare funds. I can only refer to those I know, but my father is 97 and I know a lot of his friends. They worked and built this nation, they were not big money earners, most just grubbing and existence from the land, most only ended up with the home they lived in and a few thousand in the bank. They, like my dad, rely totally on the pension and social services to exist.
    A large proportion of those currently working are living on the bread line, hand to mouth existence. Is this their fault, yes I suppose so, there is ample opportunity in Australia to get an education, to work hard and make a success of ones self, a good friend and excellent debater here tells us of Kevin Rudd. He was I believe a politician here, he came from a tiny rural farm to become the Prime Minister of Australia, twice, but is this real.

    Can every Australian go to school, then on to do say medicine or law at university, or business studies or politics? Technically they can but in reality they cannot;. Besides there not being enough university places, besides the fact we need people to do the more menial tasks like sweeping streets, collecting garbage, serving in shops, driving taxis etc etc, some people just do not have the intellect to go on at university and yet others do not want to.

    In my circles I often hear the word "gifted", "He is a gifted surgeon.", "That solicitor has a gift" and they are right to a degree, most I have met do have a gift, the gift of a high intelligence and the ability to use it. In hospitals in which I have worked, many doctors strut around arrogantly, with little time for those beneath them, nurses (not so much these days) but porters, cleaners, office workers etc. Same I believe in Law and Politics. I always let them know (doctors) that they would never see as many patients or have such success rates if it wasn't for all the ancillary help they receive.

    So why then is there such disparity in their salaries.

    When I was at uni, we did a subject called medicine and society. It was aimed at finding out why the students picked medicine, to see what their goals were and to help doctors become a greater part of society. In my class only 4 out of 20 said they did medicine because they wanted to help the sick, 6 said because they got enough marks and the rest were money or position or because mummy and daddy were doctors. Of the 20 only 2, myself and a girl from Liverpool were from homes that didn't have at least one other professional, most had one or more parents who were either a doctor or a nurse.

    There are 2 reasons here. One is they have grown up with medicine in their blood, eat drink and breath it, and secondly because they had the confidence and support network at home. The other girl had a father who was willing to mortgage his home to help her, and I worked 2 jobs, because my family couldn't afford to help and because I could. btw I left after 5 years, taking a BSc as the work combined with the study and being a new father was too much.

    There are 2 things that I needed to do what I did, self confidence and pig headed determination. A smattering of intelligence, ability and desire to learn didn't go astray either.

    As society keeps dividing itself into the "Haves and the have nots", the "Are and the are nots", as we tend to look more down on those of a lower station, as we keep looking for excuses to keep up our race for wealth, power and position it is killing the Australian spirit of "Have a go mate".

    Once Australia gave up allotments of land to it's people, the people worked their "selection" and the country prospered. People worked because they were appreciated. Doctors did house calls, there was the family doctor, baby health clinics, senior citizens organisations, we as a society cared about everyone.

    We need to restore confidence, not in business, that will happen as course, not in our government, that too will happen, but in our society. We need a society in which most, we will never get everyone, but most have the confidence to contribute. We have to show them that what they do is appreciated, and having the CEO saying that he is concerned for his staffs welfare and therefore not giving any wage rises because it could mean staff cuts, whilst the board votes to raise his salary from $5 million dollars to $7 million (yes I plucked numbers out of the air) is not the way to do it.

    Having non-contributing zillionares like Clive and Gina saying others work for $2 a week or whatever doesn't go a long way towards helping either. So how can we restore not only confidence, but loyalty and the spirit that has built Australia. It's not by stopping immigration, 95% of Australians are migrants or are from migrant backgrounds, and most of us originated from social, financial or family reunion migration.

    So we provide them with health and education, relatively free and available, but shelter and food we seem to want to play around with. It is shelter, the most basic need of mankind, that I believe will start the ball rolling. Why, because currently it is in critical need, 100s of thousands of people have no real home to go to. Hundreds of thousands of others are paying through the nose for the privilege of renting. And whilst 100's of thousands are despairing that they will never be able to afford to buy a home of their own, no matter how hard they work, they see on the news an announcement... "Good news, the Real Estate Institute predicts that house prices will rise dramatically"... Yes great news...not

    Currently at the moment our public housing is a mess, houses with little or no caveats on them are handed out to the lucky few, the waiting list times is in the decades.

    I remember working in a pie and cake factory, at Christmas. Work was starting to slow down, Christmas parties and the approaching holidays were consuming workers thoughts, output was dropping at a time we needed it to go up. The boss announced that everyone was getting the usual Christmas bonus again this year and within hours the work rate picked up, workers got stuck into their jobs to help the boss meet his orders. This is human nature at work, we need to know we are cared for, not just the bottom line.

    Now go read my first post here again please.
     
  8. DominorVobis

    DominorVobis Banned at Members Request

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    So we want to get folks back on our side, the countries side that is. To show them not so much that we care, but that we feel that they are a part of it, a part of Australia, we give them a stake in it. Now we don't want them to feel like it is a handout, but a start, a stake. We sell them the home, based on a HECS (pay when able through the taxation dept) like scheme. Those that didn't earn enough to repay would mostly be on some sort of welfare housing payment anyway. This I believe would be cheaper and more efficient way of public housing, it is giving them something to hopefully look after and one day could be theirs rather than lending them something out of charity.

    It would help restore confidence, therefore self confidence and self worth in a lot more people and therefore increasing their drive and ambition to give something back rather than do something back.

    "A bird dose not sing because it has an answer, it sings because it has a song." Maya Angelou
    "A man does not work because he wants money, he works because he wants to work." Common Sense.
     
  9. DominorVobis

    DominorVobis Banned at Members Request

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    Unemployment is a necessary part of Capitalism, as necessary as entrepreneurs are IMHO. Until and if ever we could, have exactly the same number of jobs as we do workers, and have new jobs coming online at the same rate and timing as the birthrate (net) and until we do not have a need for itinerant or seasonal workers, and every single person wants and is capable of working, then we will have unemployed.

    Until we can guarantee that when some business like Telstra, or Bonds, or the Government will not sack thousands of workers, whilst everyone is healthy, while while while ... we will have unemployed.

    A new business or a change in demand could need a quick supply of workers, we need a pool of unemployed.
    At Christmas, a significant number of businesses do a significant proportion of their business, a lot of businesses only operating during the Christmas season even. Their staff are usually unemployed, we need a pool of unemployed.

    So we do need unemployed, they are a resource pool for business.

    So why not pay them adequately, it's usually not their fault. It's even sometimes so a business can make more profit, business profit because of the unemployed, not in spite of them.

    and yes I know there are bludgers, so what, do we treat them all as bludgers? There are R. Soles in business too, do we treat all businessmen as R. Soles then?
     
  10. garry17

    garry17 Well-Known Member

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    So you begin with insults and expect all to be taken with a modicum of credit and respect. If you believe this is good way to set the record straight or start a serious debate…
    I have a bridge you might be interested in…
    bridge.png
    Locate in Sydney, with great prospect for return. User pay system that generates enough for up keep and profit on the side… Careful management will insure great return on investment and constant renewal. Ability to renegotiate lease with tenants could mean increase in return. Sure there are many projects been presented in competition but due to increasing demand Guarantees for steady increase in income is assured… For only half the price to build the equivalent


    Not your cup of tea??? Too risky??? Well got this great function centre. Acoustics are some of the best to be found in Australia. Located on its own spit with harbour views. Several levels for are interchangeable for greater use of areas. Sure parking is a problem but close to all major public transport with short walk to shops. Going cheap by anybody’s standards
    Too much work for an investment
    operahouse.jpg
    Maybe an office block… This one I have been holding for somebody like yourself. Sure easy return on investment with future leases just waiting.
    frontprl.png

    Leased by the room (and there are many) in a 3x3 format (for dummies that is 3years with a 3year option renewed every three years) with 100% occupancy rate. Along with this there is large waiting list for future accommodation for such good facilities with GYMS, POOLS, SAUNAS, restaurants, bars for the occupants only creating a unique ability for privacy not seen anywhere in Australia.
    topprl.jpg


    Many meeting rooms and several function rooms with individual catering facilities and utilities. As can be seen by the photo well groomed gardens and parking areas. Many shared common areas with two large board rooms that are used only by occupants to hash out exactly what is best for themselves and how to implement their new found ideas for their better life… Sure there is some argument and pomp and ceremony but generally not much usually happens in these rooms. Reasonably priced for sale, you cannot go wrong with this one…

    I know, I know. You think to yourself ‘this is too good to be true?’ But I am not trying to swindle you… really I am not… Not me… really, truly. This is fair dinkum once in a life time event… How can the prices be so cheap You ask??? Well it is a fire sale and will be listed only for a short time…

    Now I am not trying to make any excuses here, I am just explaining the reasoning behind this sale… I had the misfortune of instigating management that would appear to be extremely inept and deceitful. That is this management my board decided upon did not seem to be aware how to run a business and simply made show of being useful. After employment, the world went through a financial crisis which this management group decided would be great to throw copious amounts of money at with little or any respect of where it was to be procured from. A situation this group assured they were prepared for, turns out they were wrong.

    After the board lost much confidence in them when their CEO continued to fly around the world on our ticket (at great expense in the company jet) with failure after failure of the assurances the CEO and management group gave they sent him to some exotic place on an extended holiday the company payed for and will for decades to come. They installed another CEO (A woman: now I do not object to a women being in power) which I should have cut them then, as they came around with those same assurances but this time they would adhere to them as they are the new team. What a screw up that was, not only did they fail to meet their assurances they also did the exact opposite of what they said… Then they had the hide to bring back the original deceitful CEO and proclaiming him to be a new man. What a joke, obviously they believed us to be so stupid we would contract them back to the job and watch them spend our money like it was their right to do so.

    Now I know this is my fault for not watching them, but I have to admit I was distracted by other things. Most of all was the people drowning. See, my house is surrounded by water, you might think that is great but the neighbours continue to allow people to get in some very leaky boats and paddle over to my side of the pond. This is not such a problem but accidents do happen and sure enough people were injured and drowned. Now OK, if It happens in my property I have to try and do something about it, but why in hell should I be held to account when people die on my neighbours side when I have no indication anything is happening? FFS I am sure after the effort of that last management team, if somebody drowns in a glass of water in Beijing I will be blamed for that TOO. Anyway, all the WH&S was extremely time consuming and by the time I look back to my management team… All I had was debt, many tenets who are unable to pay the rent and many jobs I provided gone, and they have the hide to say ‘look at the good job’…

    So, the sale of these properties will go a long way into servicing the loans that last incompetent management team put me in and from there we should be able to cope with what is left. When the debt is paid, I will be able to create some more menial jobs for those who have none so at least they can pay the rent… GET THE PICTURE???

    The Worst kind of people are those that lie to themselves and then believe those lies as fact without question or evaluation. Why, you ask? Because they will never learn, they can never be told, they are left to experience the same failures of the past as they will not believe anything until it happens to them…

    I'll get back to on the rest later... Got other work to do at the moment.
     
  11. DominorVobis

    DominorVobis Banned at Members Request

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    I agree 100%, Oh and I must thank you. The other day I said on this forum that I was a Socialist. I have never said that before, not even really thought about it, having grown up being indoctrinated by staunch Country Party society in the small rural town I grew up in. We fear a commo under the bed and the march of the dreaded socialists. I am so glad I woke up to my senses and have said those freeing words.

    I am a Socialist (I'm not really, I hate labels)
     
  12. garry17

    garry17 Well-Known Member

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    Actually that is considerably wrong. Those on pensions and doles actually make a small proportion of the welfare budget. Corporate welfare, family payments make larger portion and from what I see is unaccounted for by your thoughts.

    Yes, they can. Again Rudd is classic example but look to all about and you will see that many demonstrate that same.

    University places are placed by marks not wealth. As stated if one wants to work hard they are able to achieve the same…
    So you think you should decide who should go to UNI based on YOUR consideration of who should do what job??? Now you walk shaky ground.


    And some just want what everybody else has without any effort…
    Well there you go, believing your own lie… Just to let you in on a badly kept secret, they do not really mean they have been gifted with a talent as you appear to be thinking. They mean they are excellent at what they do…


    yeah yeah, tell us something we don’t know.
    Umm… perhaps that has something to do with the responsibility they are awarded over those ancillary workers you want to have paid the same. Perhaps If you held them as accountable as the Doctor or Solicitor then maybe we should pay them the same…
    Irrelevant, Your word of events is worthless without evidence…
    Again irrelevant and totally based upon your idea of what is happening outside your view. The fact is, the only way you could provide this type of comment is if you fabricated the entire scenario thus making the entire comment useless.
    Well for a Supposed UNI student counting learnt in primary school went astray.
    Actually this is very incorrect, what is killing the spirit of Australia is the attack of people who do lean down and lend a hand to those less privileged. Your attack in envy is the classic example of complete lack of knowledge of WHAT the Australian spirit is all about.
    Yes at the start that is what happened, People in another country decided that the indigenous population owned nothing and handed out land… Got that right.

    Garbage… People worked hard to survive… it is that simple. When all this was occurring there was no pension, Dole or any help. They helped themselves and when they could others around them, NOT for appreciation but to survive because unlike you, they experienced many problems and knew that they needed to support others to survive…

    All of which began when????
    An attacking those that YOU consider to deserve it does nothing for society.

    So in your long held wisdom, perhaps you could explain what part of society contributed to assist the needy??? Or do you think it has always been the needy???

    I don’t know what to say here… Obviously you have only given this the smallest of thought from the welfare side of the issue to attack those who are wealthy. You do not seem to understand who has done what in the past and who appreciated the efforts of those who worked very hard not only for themselves but for all…

    Talk about misquoting and misleading… But if you want to continue to compare yourself to the rest of the world and complain when somebody achieves more then you… Don’t complain when they ignore you and anything you say.

    No, that is something you do not seem to understand. Welfare is provided to those who cannot shelter themselves and feed themselves. Welfare is not some god given right to go about kicking your heels up and then stand about complaining you cannot feed yourself… Welfare for housing is payed above JUST FOR THE PURPOSE OF SHELTER…
    So why is that??? I know of houses to rent that are cheap as chips.., In fact if they rented them they could claim FULL rental assistance and have a handy increase in welfare after rent… BUT you expect everybody to pay for people to live anywhere they want no matter the cost…

    Why should everybody own their own house??? Are you aware of how many people in the world actually own their own house??? Owning is a luxury YOU expect should be afforded to all regardless of situation, ability or effort.
    And have you even considered WHY???
    More Anecdotal material that Is both worthless and ignorant of reasoning.
    Me thinks you believe your word is greater than it is…
     
  13. garry17

    garry17 Well-Known Member

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    Simply put, misguided and completely irrelevant to the claim of bringing Australians together.
    Dead right, BUT I am assuming you do not comprehend the quote.
    Garbage, A man does work for money so he can survive in a world without money he would starve. Commen Sense tells us that if we could survive and enjoy life without work, then they would not work... BUT I am do assume you are older than you sound...
     
  14. garry17

    garry17 Well-Known Member

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    I asked you why you considered capitalism will fail and you obviously could not answer that question, what was it??? Because it inhumain... Shallow at the least.

    Look honestly I could not be bothered reading this one at the moment. You seem to not understand exactly what you want and are simply flooding the forum with irrelevant dribble in the hope somebody will consider it worthwhile.

    Fact is you miss the most fundamental point of your issue... To put it simply, dogs are usually smarter than man, they do not bite the hand that feeds them. While in this day and age it seems to be the norm to bite the hand that used to feed them (which you are doing here) why in hell do you think people would go out of their way to help those who show absolutely no appreciation for anything done for them? Why in hell do they consider it their right to be supported by those that do work hard and succeed??? Consider those for just a minute, then babble on with more dribble... Obviously your basic psychology was severely lacking.
     
  15. aussiefree2ride

    aussiefree2ride New Member

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    I truly find it amazing, that anyone would actually believe that working for a living, as opposed to bludging off others, should be an option. This is completely impractical and immoral, and should be held as an example of self centred dysfunctionality. I any society, capitalist, socialist, whatever, to bludge off others, is completely unacceptable. There are moral, and practical obligations within any society, to contribute to society, and to not be a parasite.
     
  16. truthvigilante

    truthvigilante Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Everyone has bludged off our system including gina and rupert whoa are probably our biggest bludgers!
     
  17. DominorVobis

    DominorVobis Banned at Members Request

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    I agree 100%, this is why we need to take away incentive not to work and replace it with one that gives incentive.
     
  18. aussiefree2ride

    aussiefree2ride New Member

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    I agree with that. In many instances, it does seem to be too hard, out of reach of many people, to work within their scope & maintain a secure and acceptable lifestyle. Anyone should be able to do that, providing they budget sensibly, and don`t have debilitating vices. The cost of housing is one of the major obstacles, and there answer. I don`t believe that socialism is the answer though. We need to work on the system we`ve got, continually.

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    Envy is destructive to the envious, not the envied.
     
  19. Diuretic

    Diuretic Well-Known Member

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    In our capitalist system it's a forced option, not working I mean. It's not an option in a socialist system though.
     
  20. truthvigilante

    truthvigilante Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Why do both complain about how tough they are doing then? They need a type of welfare system to keep maintain skiting rights! Alluding that workers lower their pays to $2 a day is a welfare system! It's the same as getting something for nothing! Our money system is just a gigantic welfare system, just some know how to work the system better than others!
     
  21. aussiefree2ride

    aussiefree2ride New Member

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    Maintaining your average I see TV. You got 100% of all of the points ballsed up.

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    How so D? Are you referring to practice, or theory?
     
  22. garry17

    garry17 Well-Known Member

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    My point entirely. From your previous posts I could explain how giving one type of person something no matter how fair you think it is does not create incentive... It creates a discriminating atmosphere against those who work to better themselves.

    Incentives must be created to get off welfare (as this is crippling the country) by reducing welfare dependence. When a working families need welfare to survive, the problem is extreme. Your ideas about housing amounts to welfare at an extreme but admiral that you consider something. However, the fact is, you deny the fact that all have the same opportunity to own their own house, (sure some have to work harder but still no impediment due to personal circumstances)

    Superannuation is supposed to remove the need for pensions, but of course many will require the pension and sure it should be higher than currently is. These people usually have worked hard (with some exceptions) The dole however, is particularly interesting as most who are on it expect to have high standard of living as a given right. Fact is the dole should only be the bare minimum to survive to create an incentive to get off it.

    The biggest problem however, is the fact Australia is so uncompetitive globally corporate welfare is major problem. My strongest belief is that companies who sell to the wharf not be allowed to claim corporate welfare. Also companies that export their product to the world and import their domestic sales should also be held to account.

    Welfare is the biggest incentive NOT to work so Australia needs policy that reduces the need to survive on welfare. I am not sure government is prepared to address this situation.
     
  23. Diuretic

    Diuretic Well-Known Member

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    Both Aussie. In a capitalist system, apart from the requirement for unemployment, anyone can choose whether or not to sell their labour. In a socialist system no-one sells their labour but they do have to work. If people could choose not to work then the system would break down, just as it would in a capitalist system.
     
  24. garry17

    garry17 Well-Known Member

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    Look I let that slide the first time but the fact is, this is not true... You are assuming Welfare is a capitalist requirement, it is not. In fact capitalism is better for full employment so every soul can become part of the capitalist system in every way. Should a member become unemployed then they are removed from the system... Think about it... Why is capitalism destined to collapse???

    The problem with the socialist system is that it does not create incentive for progress... Sure everybody works, but few will extend themselves to risk advancement and loose position...
     
  25. Diuretic

    Diuretic Well-Known Member

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    No garry, I wasn't referring to welfare, I was referring to the need for unemployment. The argument is based on the necessity of unemployment to guard against wages-driven inflationary factors. At present in our system wages are based - this is a bit of a broad statement but I hope if I have to I can back it up - on scarcity of labour. Those famous twin laws of demand and supply kick in here. If there is a shortage of labour and plenty of jobs on offer, employers will be forced into a bidding war for labour which forces up the cost of labour to employers and is passed on to consumers and has an inflationary effect. To ameliorate this there must be more labour than there is a general demand and that means unemployment at an optimum level.

    Incentives for progression are a combination of monetary and other (that's a big category). We know a lot more about work and people now, thanks to many years of research, possibly beginning with Taylor. We know that there are many motivators for workers and money is just one of them and short-term at that. A socialist economy can provide all the motivators. And a socialist economy can and should recognise that higher skilled workers should be paid for those skills.

    On the issue of the collapse of capitalism. It will end, eventually, it's on life support now. Don't get me wrong, capitalism has been advantageous for us, I acknowledge that. If Marx and Engels were alive today they would be stunned at how the societies they studied (which I think were primarily Victorian Britain) have advanced. The poverty and depredation that they saw has disappeared. But that's not just down to capitalism, it's got more to do with the implementation of socialist ideas which have blunted the sharper edge of laissez-faire capitalism. But the point remains that capitalism has worked very well for us. Yet like any other economic form that came before it, capitalism will fade out rather than collapse in spectacular fashion. It will gradually change to another form I think. It won't be Marxist socialism, the various theories of socialism have advanced markedly since the early theorists, it will also be required to accept the reality of dwindling natural resources and the issue of population. But that's crystal-ball stuff, I'm outright guessing now and that isn't the best for a discussion. Suffice to say I believe capitalism will gradually end and another form of economic system emerge.
     

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