Eastern Europeans making money inflaming right wing nationalis

Discussion in 'Australia, NZ, Pacific' started by Bowerbird, Mar 14, 2019.

  1. PrincipleInvestment

    PrincipleInvestment Well-Known Member

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    You're being disingenuous right now ... post # 3 in your thread "New Zealand Mosques ...", and my reply # 125 clearly proves that.
     
  2. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It's different in Aus. I dont blame you for not understanding, it is quasi legal to post. NZ shut down Sky News this morning. We dont have the same history of free press and the such.

    I completely understand where that impulse comes from, though I dont agree with it. We need to combat these vile people in the intellectual arena, not for their sake, but for others who may be attracted by the allure of forbidden knowledge.

    This is pretty easy, as our ideas as so heavily superior to their own.
     
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  3. PrincipleInvestment

    PrincipleInvestment Well-Known Member

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    My point was more about feigned ignorance ... I posted the link, and a screenshot of the relevant portion of the manifesto.
     
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  4. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Brace yourself, it's a difficult read. I got extremely angry realizing he's not some psychotic, that he has a plan, and the plan might just work. Its uncomforting and confronting to realise some people... they're not sick, they're not insane, they're just EVIL.

    And what do we do about that.

    We can limit their impact by, like in Aus, prohibiting his semi-autos, but he is not going to stop. He is perfectly willing to wait 6 months and get a handgun permit, he has no problem resorting to fertilizer and diesel, he might get a van and kill 80, there is no stopping someone like this.

    What are the implications of that. Terrifying.
     
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  5. Blaster3

    Blaster3 Well-Known Member

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    nope, all that does is get people to hate other people based solely upon association... the 'why' is irrelevent, the 'who' is all that matters, execute the bastard publicly & televised for all the world to see that society won't tolerate 'madness' no matter the reason why...

    your text that i highlighted can only lead to one thing... laws against free thought & speech, and if we do that for each person that commits a heinous crime, then we'll be outlawing everything we do as normal law abiding individuals because everything will become a crime... making law based upon 'feelings' is a sure way to end peaceful existence while destroying life, liberty & happiness...
     
  6. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think we cannot deny that there is work going on to create sort of armies of this kind. They are in the US and in Europe with the Identitarians, Tommy Robinson having now got some kind of key voice as a 'leader' in that movement. You have Bannon coming over to Europe, to France trying to get them moving and it was the extreme right he was talking to as I listened to his 'lecture' in France where he told them they, the US, were learning from them. The have camps in Europe where they get a kind of military training of sorts...and what I find even more crazy is that people were trying to get Tommy Robinson to speak to the Republican Party'. Luckily he was already banned from the US. He is now being financed from the US. He was all but finished before. Like it or not in Europe and the US there are organised extreme right groups and they are dangerous.

    As far as people on this forum, well if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then as far as I am concerned it almost certainly is a duck. However when people like Steady Pie come in and with no ifs or buts make clear how much they find this horrific, then that is showing that is not them. Unfortunately a lot of people in the other thread have shown the opposite. Possibly as little as two years ago you would not hear this kind of talk on this forum. It has gradually got worse and worse so that now you have people even showing support for what he did. I believe they hope by acting like this they can present the idea that it is fine to think and talk like that ...and

    In respect to what I said about Tommy Robinson and the US. He was being supported by the Middle East forum and Daniel Pipes and similar. Daniel Pipes is one of the people Brevik thanked for the inspiration for what he did.

    https://www.mend.org.uk/news/american-neocons-bankrolling-free-tommy-robinson-campaign/
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
  7. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I see there are conflicting opinions on what you posted, but excellent point none the less.

    The problem of course is;

    a)when people explore any other point than the liberal mainstream they are shouted down and condemned even ostracised, refer "Sky News" and Senator Anning. You will never move to an understanding with this mindset because you are not allowed to consider or explore.

    b) the sensitive nature of the topic, there are many mourning their dead while we are coldly discussing this issue.

    Personally I have been contemplating this topic for some time, I believe it is rooted in particularly two areas;

    1. Young White men feeling impotent and discriminated against in a society that vilifies them and in the perceived lack of response on terror attacks in the west against what they see as their own.

    2. The conflicting messages from our governments in their alliances, Wahhabi Saudi Arabia, aligned with the US and Israel, guaranteed to create or fuel Wahhabi terrorism in those who hates this alliance. Also the wars we fight in the middle east by our soldiers, their families and support system who are asked to embrace all on return, kill yesterday, love tomorrow. The war itself is adding to this problem.
     
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  8. slipperyfish

    slipperyfish Well-Known Member

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    The extreme right and extreme left. One is born from the other and can only really exist by feeding each other. Most people sit generally in the sensible middle, but these extremes pop up from time to time and then feed of each others hate. I find neither group intelligent in any way, only bigotted and narrowminded.

    A single fool by themselves is just a fool, but two fools are dangerous.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
  9. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    While it is true that these terror events feed more terror events, I think we should give more consideration to both sides without labelling.

    The problem is that many of these tragic events are extremely sensitive and whilst I believe Senators Annings comments were insensitive, I also think that perhaps they are necessary. It usually takes a brave individual to stand up in the face of all condemnation to make us aware that what we brush off as crazy, should perhaps be explored as flaws, double standards, or issues that needs addressing within our societies.

    For example terror attacks by Islamist extremists sometimes are explained or reasoned by..... ie drone attacks, ostracisation in the west, wars in the middle east etc. These reasons not necessarily far fetched, we did have thousands join ISIS after all.

    Senator Anning firstly condemned the attacks and then provided a reason he thought contributed to the problem. He was egged by an emotional teenager, and what did the adults in the room do.... the applauded the teenager and basically violated his right to free speech on social media.

    I do not agree 100% with his assessment, although I think it does add to a wider issue....

    Today in our societies we are only allowed to express horror, and hatred to these terrorists if they are white, but are allowed to add reasoning if they are islamists... we are not consistent, nor are we logical in our approach to these problems. Perhaps we are fearful of what we will find if we did start looking.
     
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  10. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    I cannot agree

    We are talking about Anning - a pollie too right wing for Katter!

    I also blame the Eastern European trolls on Facebook who have made hating immigrants an acceptable pastime
     
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  11. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Much of the condemnation and smearing that he endured on this particular topic, is because of who he is.... and not what he said.
    This demonstrates intolerance of the right, it is discrimination and abuse of their right to free speech, after all what he said was not hate speech, he condemned the attack first.

    We are in a situation where social media is "hijacked" and used to stir dissent or simply make money by a variety of different players, I don't see this changing anytime soon.. despite the campaign to shut everyone down.

    The problem we need to address is why does this "extremist propaganda" resonate with some in our societies.

    To write this off as crazy babble is an oversimplification of the problem
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
  12. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

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    Do we have a right to freedom of speech in Aust?
    We have an assumption that we can speak freely unless it is hate speech designed to incite violence or danger.
     
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  13. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Australians are inherently outspoken and I believe more free than most.

    We have a right to free speech within the constraints of " hate speech, discrimination and inciting violence". We don't have a right to shut someone down, abuse them physically or verbally or smear them simply because we don't like or agree with what they are saying.

    My issue with simply brushing this off as "lunacy or crazy" is that we are then effectively also saying all ISIS supporters and islamist extremists are simply crazy. we're talking of potentially hundreds of thousands of crazy people.

    There are those who sympathise with their cause... then there are those who are emotionally disconnected and mentally ill enough to take action. If we keep shutting people down who are exploring why these things happen we will never understand or those who keep being shut out will become more desperate to be heard...
     
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  14. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    It works due to one of the most powerful psychological imperatives known to man

    Peer pressure

    Immerse people in enough bull and they will start to believe it. Why was it so acceptable twenty thirty years ago to make jokes about “boongs”? Don’t even hear the word now
     
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  15. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Sorry but we do NOT have a “right to free speech” as that is not enshrined in our constitution

    What we do have is a bloody mindedness that would kick the **** out of anyone trying to curtail our speech
     
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  16. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    of course I was talking human rights not constitutional
     
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  17. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    peer pressure to go out and in cold blood kill 50 people.... peer pressure to behead people simply because they are a citizen of a country you despise. Peer pressure to stab someone you don't know because they appear to be of a different religion

    ok then we need to absolutely eliminate peer pressure for good, because until we do we will not stop terrorism.... <<< makes no sense because peer pressure is part of human nature.... are we then saying terrorism is part of human nature.

    I believe terrorism is rooted in being silenced... having no voice or not being heard. It takes a "certain individual" to act on their frustration with society and when it comes to this type of violence in our societies, we do a good job in going completely deaf, perhaps because we are so desperate NOT to give these people a voice.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019
  18. slipperyfish

    slipperyfish Well-Known Member

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    Yeah good post. A balanced view.

    Most on here will not understand your view here as they are blinded by their own agendas. This makes it difficult for them rationalise what you are saying.

    I am a great defender of free speech, because once it is gone so is every other freedom we enjoy. Censorship is the greatest weapon of societies extremities. We may not like what we hear or read sometimes but we are free to debate it and offer differing views.

    The most disturbing thing I found with the Anning incident was not the egging, or the clip under the ear, but the applause from adults, mainly apparent impartial journalists, for the egging act.

    When people become marginalised and feel disinfranchised they gravitate to the edges looking for those who are feeling the same. The problem we have is disinfranchisement. We would like to think as a species we are all inclusive, but in reality and since the dawn of time we are no such thing. Yes we try and at times whilst reaching for balance and equity we tilt completely the other way thus merely changing who is effected not the effect itself.
     
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  19. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I was just reading an article in The Age, the journalist blaming "free speech" or more specifically "right wing politician speech". What would he suggest Islamist terror is then...free speech also... but of a different flavour... now we're entering a minefield ito prohibiting free speech.

    https://www.theage.com.au/world/oce...-why-is-harder-to-digest-20190317-p514v1.html

    How quickly we forget how we condemn countries where free speech is prohibited or those who attempt it persecuted. How many times are we going to backflip on our values when it suits us,

    We need to draw a distinct line between free speech and hate speech. Importantly something you don't like to hear is not necessarily hate speech and you should not be allowed to smear someone as having used hate speech, when they did not.
     
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  20. billy the kid

    billy the kid Well-Known Member

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  21. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

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  22. billy the kid

    billy the kid Well-Known Member

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    True.....one of the many reasons the world is in such a f.... mess
     
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  23. slipperyfish

    slipperyfish Well-Known Member

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    A distinct line?

    An admirable ideal, but who decides what is offensive, hateful, or inciteful?

    What one finds offensive another may not.

    Who is at fault at a rally, the person speaking or the mob protesting that speech? When it all turns sour that is. What would stop one group deliberately blaming incite as the reason they rioted?

    Who defines the rules and how can they be enforced without retarding the values of free speech?

    A major question for our times, and a very important debate.
     
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  24. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Yes!

    That is how strong peer pressure can be

    To fully appreciate it argue with a Trump supporter. Part of the reason they are not giving up is that they feel like part of a group and therefore special

    Radicalisation is not difficult
     
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  25. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    And yet, we do have a responsibity to condemn some speech as hateful

    Would this be acceptable today?

     
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