Elections, Criminal Trial and Impeachment, ... and Burden of Proof

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Golem, Dec 6, 2019.

  1. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    Three completely different procedures which have no relation whatsoever to each other. The only thing they have in common is that people accuse somebody of something that is disagreeable.

    And it seems to me like some (especially on the right) are attempting to conflate the three to create confusion about Trump's crimes. So let's disentangle.

    Each one responds to completely different things. Elections are about policies, Criminal Trial is about crimes, Impeachment is about high crimes and misdemeanors.

    Elections: During an election, politicians discuss politics. Candidates accuse each other of all sorts of things. Mostly of espousing the wrong policies. Sometimes of more egregious conduct. But it's mostly about policies. Nobody goes to prison because they lose an election. They just don't get a job. So the burden of proof on the accuser is very lax.

    Criminal Trial: Somebody is accused of committing a crime. The person accused might end up in jail if they are found guilty. They will lose a basic human right: the right to liberty. For this reason, there is a strict burden of proof. To the point where the accuser has the absolute burden of proof.

    Impeachment: Somebody (in this case, the President) in a high position is accused of abusing power. The most egregious form of abuse is one in which they use the powers of their office to perpetuate themselves in their position. This is why bribery and treason are explicitly given as examples of high crimes. However, in no case is the accused going to jail if they are found guilty. At least not as a result of the Impeachment. But it does imply overturning a popular vote. So the burden of proof is much stricter than it was in the campaign. But nowhere near as strict as it is in a criminal trial. Because, in the worst of cases, the accused simply loses their job before their term is over.

    So anybody saying that we should wait until the elections, or that Impeachment has the same requirements as a trial, are simply confusing the processes. Because the purpose of the elections is not to remove from office. It's to raise a deserving American to the highest office in the country. And the purpose of a criminal court is to punish.

    Impeachment is not about punishment. It is simply about controlling a threat to the Constitution.

    Everybody should have this clear at this point.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2019
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  2. Lee_Wang_Tran

    Lee_Wang_Tran Newly Registered

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    The purpose of a criminal court is not to punish, it's to rehabilitate and deter. Impeachment should be far more strict than a criminal trial.

    The effect of a criminal trial does harm to one person. The effect of a impeachment robs hundreds of millions of voters of their vote. Impeachment doesn't just affect Trump, it affects everyone that voted for him.

    Congress is trying to rob me of my vote by impeaching Trump, robbing the vote of hundreds of millions, and you think that is less extreme than a single criminal trial?
     
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  3. kriman

    kriman Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is very little guidance on impeachment. The best examples of how they should be conducted is the justice system. They are designed to come up with a fair impartial verdict. An impeachment should be no less. Not following this just because they don't have to is a very poor excuse.
     
  4. Frank

    Frank Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Impeachment does not "rob" anyone of anything. Impeachment is simply indicating that a majority of the House has determined that a high official (in this case, Trump) should be tried by the Senate.

    Don't worry. The spineless Republican senators will not convict Trump, even if he shot someone on Fifth Avenue.
     
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  5. Sanskrit

    Sanskrit Well-Known Member

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    What a disingenuous pile of gibberish.

    When a political party in the majority, any political party in any government anywhere at any time, attempts to circumvent and subvert a working, time-tested process of peaceful transition of power with its own legal process, sans credible, direct, very weighty evidence, the two forms of process are absolutely, directly related, and anyone with more than a few brain cells rattling around will not be fooled by vacuous claims to the contrary.

    Keep trying to put lipstick on that pig and keep failing. It's going to get much worse before it gets better. This will go down as a seminal boondoggle in U.S. political history, as incompetently handled as the Watergate break-in.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2019
  6. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    Doesn't change my point. Impeachment is not intended to rehabilitate either. It's about the country. Not about the President.

    So you believe that losing a job is more relevant than losing a fundamental right.

    So noted. But doesn't surprise me from one of the few people in this planet who actually believe that Trump's call was "perfect".

    Exactly the contrary. Impeachment ensures that millions (not hundreds of millions) can vote and that sitting Presidents don't abuse their power to make themselves a Monarch.

    Wrong. It only affects those who voted for Trump and refuse to see the overwhelming and undeniable evidence that he is a criminal.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2019
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  7. Socratica

    Socratica Well-Known Member

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    Normative. Impeachments means whatever people want it to mean. If people want it to be about punishment, then it will be about punishment. If people want it to be about controlling the threat to the constitution, it will be about controlling a threat to the constitution.

    It can mean whatever people want it to mean because it is a political process, not a legal one; as this point was the only thing you've correctly eluded to.
     
  8. Socratica

    Socratica Well-Known Member

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    It's a political process. The Republicans are not legally obligated to do anything, just like how the Democrats can start an investigation with a forgone conclusion.
     
  9. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    Wrong! Though I can't fault you for your mistake because I actually believed the same before Wednesday's testimonies.

    Learning is a good thing.

    The only remedy that Impeachment carries is removal from office. The impeachment process does not send anybody to prison, or impose any other penalties other than to fire the person found guilty of High Crimes.

    So if the people wanted impeachment to be about punishment, a constitutional amendment would be required.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2019
  10. Socratica

    Socratica Well-Known Member

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    That's nice, but you're not saying anything other than an opinion.

    Impeachment doesn't need to be about any of those things to be about punishment. The Commander and Chief is simply bad at his job and needs to be held accountable. If you believe this, then impeachment is a remedy.

    The President can be impeached for any reason and can mean whatever people want it to mean because it is a political process, not a legal process. It can be about Punishment, High Crimes or Misdemeanors, Corruption, whatever.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2019
  11. Lee_Wang_Tran

    Lee_Wang_Tran Newly Registered

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    LOL Impeachment is losing a job? It's the removal of the president, which is far more different than some boss wanting to fire an employee. A firing, doesn't cost hundreds of millions of dollars to do, doesn't cost putting an entire country on halt... right a firing. That's like saying spanking a child is the same as murdering a child because both are within the category of punishments. Sure a spank and killing someone might both be physical punishment but they are FAR in scope NOT the same thing.

    Comparing the impeachment of a president to the firing of a starbucks employee is just insane and a stretch of the imagination. It's called "impeachment" and not a firing because it's not a firing.

    You make it sound like criminal trials only deal with murders, you realize even traffic violations are handled by criminal courts right? Traffic courts are a subdivision of criminal courts.

    If you want to have a trial to dispute a $45 dollar parking ticket, you'd be entitled to a jury and would have to be found beyond a reasonable doubt to be guilty.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2019
  12. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    You are confused. First of all, of course impeachment is a remedy. Second... No. I don't believe that impeachment is about punishment. Why would it be a punishment? Or, more precisely, how is the impeached person punished? He's removed, of course. But that's not a punishment. Unless you think that spoiling the hopes of somebody who wants to be a Monarch is "punishment"

    Wow! You express such a discombobulated mental confusion that... it's difficult to even follow your thought process to try to separate fact from nonsense. Yes, impeachment is a political process. No, a President cannot be Impeached for "any reason". Not legally. The only reason is High Crimes and Misdemeanors. Such as bribery. Which is the case with Trump. Or "Obstruction of Justice" as is the case with ... every single Impeachment in the past. Corruption is a High Crime. But "whatever" is not.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2019
  13. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    It is different from firing an employee. That's why we spend hundreds of... (well not that much... that's nonsense)

    But the final remedy is the same. The boss doesn't see it as a punishment. They see it as a remedy to the problem in their business. In the case of the country, we are "the boss".
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2019

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