Empathy is overrated

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by yguy, May 25, 2015.

  1. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    To hear the hardcore atheists tell it, it's the basis of morality, but clearly they haven't considered the matter in any depth. Sure, you wouldn't want a hammer buried in your skull, so you don't bury one in someone else's skull. I get it. But now let's say Joe is about to bury one in Jim's skull, and the only way you can prevent it is with a lead overdose in Joe's guts? What happened to your empathy for Joe?

    On a more innocuous level, let's say you have a child who is overweight, and you give him candy because you empathize with his craving. Surely you're not gonna tell me you've acted morally.

    Now I wouldn't say the capacity for empathy has no role in morality, as we do need some idea of what is good for creatures like ourselves; but I fail to see how the act of empathizing has any necessary connection to morality.
     
  2. Oldyoungin

    Oldyoungin Well-Known Member

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    what made you think about this ? A little memorial day boozing ? Interesting thoughts on it. I view everything individual instead of a sum.
     
  3. Omnipotent

    Omnipotent New Member

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    I don't empathize with those who wish to do harm to others. Therefore I have no problem with dispatching Joe.
     
  4. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Morality does not exist except through a set of laws so it has no inherent connection to empathy.

    Empathy is individualistic whereas morality is socialistic.
     
  5. Omnipotent

    Omnipotent New Member

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    Bravo seirra... empathy is universal to all and not subjective. It's all about the ability to put yourself in another person's shoes and feeling what they feel.
     
  6. Deckel

    Deckel Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yet hard core atheists tend to show no empathy toward religious people. Ironic is it not?

    The Golden Rule, however, is the most universal concept of morality there is. It just does not require empathy to abide by it.
     
  7. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    I don't see this as a problem. I have full empathy for Joe and Jim (I mean, I don't, but I should have, so for the purposes of morality and, by extension, legislation, I do). In this example, my empathy is completely balanced, and my decision is at the mercy of other ideas, such as my considerations for future actions (is a person like Joe who sees bashing peoples' heads in as a solution to things safer to have around? Is he likely to be more dangerous to me and my surroundings? Is he more likely to have decided upon this course of action from a set of values and beliefs which I disagree with?) and so on.

    This is the reason we don't lock up federal executioners for murder, why we don't blame people who was effectively forced to murder someone and why many emphasise a penal system based on rehabilitation, determent and keeping possible criminals away from possible victims rather than retaliation and retribution.

    It should be pointed out that it is not the actually the presence of empathy that is the governing factor. A person who fails to inspire empathy in us is not automatically more worthy of punishment or being filled with lead, but empathy happens to be based on a similar notion as (what I believe to be) a correct morality would be, and empathy may be a way to ensure that I actually am interested in guaranteeing the moral protection which my morality might dictate that he deserves. Empathy is not the foundation of morality, but it can be a decent indicator. I'm not sure if that is in line with your last sentence, I don't think I understand it properly, would you care to elaborate?
     
  8. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Empathy is not universal to all....some people have none...
     
  9. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    What exactly is a "hard core" atheist?

    An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in a god or gods....that's IT!

    How can one be "hard core"....????

    They do NOT belong to a cult or group or club where they all sit around trying to agree on something and writing rules on what atheist must believe.......
     
  10. Deckel

    Deckel Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    How can you profess to knowing what they do or do not do since you also seem to profess having no idea who they are?
     
  11. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    I KNOW what an atheist is.

    I do not know what a "hard core" atheist is.


    That is why I asked.

    If you have no answer why did you post??
     
  12. Deckel

    Deckel Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You said you know what they do. Apparently you do not. The next time I do the Charlie Charlie Challenge I will ask him what is or is not permissible to post. I just got through chasing all the demons away from the last time because I forgot to ask Charlie Charlie if it was okay to go now.
     
  13. Vicariously I

    Vicariously I Well-Known Member

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    It appears I am to continue a conversation build on a foundation I am completely unaware of. What is a "hardcore" atheist? How do they differ from the non-hardcore atheists on this subject? In other words, who are these people, what exactly is their stance on morality and what is the proof that they haven't considered this matter in any depth? I only ask because it appears this is an argument build on some fallacious foundation in order to justify your position.

    Who is Jim? Who is Joe? What are the logistics of this scenario? I can't even ask why someone would sympathize with Joe because I lack the information to do so. In the end though I cannot have empathy for someone who wants to kill another person for no reason.

    At the end here you get a bit twisted, so much so that your argument appears to eat itself. You wouldn't say the capacity for empathy has no role in morality buy you fail to see how the act of empathizing has any necessary connection to morality?
     
  14. Omnipotent

    Omnipotent New Member

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    That's not what I said. Being universal didn't mean all people have it, rather it is the same for anybody who does have it.
     
  15. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    So you think nobody empathizes with those who wish to harm others?

    I'd expect you wouldn't...

    ...if you believe this.

    Then address my second example about the kid and the candy.
     
  16. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    People who claim to have voices in their head don't have empathy. They tend to follow what the voices tell them.
    I've watched Criminal Minds.
     
  17. Omnipotent

    Omnipotent New Member

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    All I said was, 'I' do not empathize. To empathize is to provoke compassion and prosocial behavior. Harming others hardly fits in that dynamic.

    I'll address it... you gave an example of codependency, not empathy.
     
  18. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    No, that's not all you said. You also said what I quoted you as saying.

    That is a nonstandard definition. The OP is based on this one:

    empathy
    [em-puh-thee]

    noun
    1. the psychological identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.

    The question, of course, is whether it conflicts with the standard definition of empathy.

    Certainly that would make sense were there any reason to believe there is any conflict between the two.
     
  19. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    It's subjective and contextual but empathy can be negated by harmful action.

    A very good argument. I say that the boundery that separates an action from an immoral action is harm... thus the foundation of my morality. To me empathy is amoral as a moral person is just one who does their best to not harm others. Empathy is not synonymous with morality because an immoral person can still be empathetic to one degree or another. For example a gang-banger can live a life of crime but still have empathy for the suffering of a loved one.
     
  20. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    I would say morality is relative to the individual as socialistic morality can only be universal in very small groups of the brainwashed.
     
  21. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    Sociopaths have no empathy thus it is not universal but subjective. Specific points of empathy are subjective too as not all who live will agree upon each and every point of empathy.
     
  22. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    The Golden Rule is flawed as it reduces all humanity to being one dimensional... Treat others the way that I would want to be treated does not mean that all others want to be treated in the same way. You ever tried to help another and got a wounded look or worse for your effort? I argue that is the Golden Rule falling flat on its face.
     
  23. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    More to the point, he can empathize with another gangbanger who gets killed trying to murder somebody.
     
  24. Omnipotent

    Omnipotent New Member

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    http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=410411&p=1065041506#post1065041506

    You misunderstood what I said. Appears I wasn't clear enough in my original post. Universal for all and not subjective doesn't mean everybody has empathy. It means for those who poses empathy, it is the same. Empathy is empathy, thus not subjective or different for the individual.
     
  25. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    It's not the presence of empathy that is the basis for morality. As I said earlier, morality shouldn't depend on our capability to inspire empathy in others.

    Empathy is the capability to understand what another person is experiencing. It does not mean that one is compelled to give in to every demand they might have. Empathy shouldn't be the only trigger for morality, but one should take steps to make sure that one does not harm others more than necessary (using their understanding of harm) and that is done with empathy.
     

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