EU haven't moved in this negotiation with Britain

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by The Rhetoric of Life, Aug 31, 2017.

  1. JohnConstantine

    JohnConstantine Active Member

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    Don't think so dude. I mean if it had a 'clear position from the beginning' then presumably it wouldn't have changed much in its function since the 50's.

    Or maybe the position is clear, I mean from the outset the general goal has been to undermine the nation state, and to shift loyalties to a new political centre, creating a new political community 'superimposed over pre-existing ones'. Free movement and the fact that EU law trumps domestic law is all part of that. National identity is to be diminished, we will see ourselves as Europeans as opposed to any particular nation in Europe, there will be a European government, bank, army and so on and individual parliaments as we know it are to pale into insignificance.

    Why is that a problem? Nationalism of the 20th century and the destruction it caused demands it! -- we're stronger together!

    For me I'm just a little bit sceptical of the motives of those who wish to wield this kind of power. I see that every state that can push people around, does. Why would we think that the answer to peace is to have more powerful states around when there is rarely a war in history which isn't started or inflamed exponentially by a large and powerful state?

    The position seems to be: Nation states are violent, therefore we need a superstate to arrest the power of individual states. Because the Soviet Union and the USA have been such a force for peace?

    I'd rather say this: Nation states are violent, therefore tax should not be permitted :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
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  2. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    There are even better reasons why America and Japan do not.
    Why in fact almost every country on the planet, does not.

    There will be a common market for 27 nations, but 2 of those 27, Ireland and Belgium, do more trade with the UK than they do with the rest of the EU combined.
    So they don't really need to pay the EU anymore either. They can just pay us.
    If you wish to **** up their economies, go for it. I will laugh.

    From the beginning the EU has had the clear position to rip off the UK. To destroy it and to subjugate it's people.
    And the UK position is also quite clear. **** off EU. No more deals with you.

    No politician has the mandate to make deals with the EU.
    Carry on EU.

    And yes, the EU, a bluff. We will pay you 100 billion pounds or.... or nothing.
    Or the EU will do nothing. Because there is nothing it can do.
    Nothing at all.

    Can't threaten us with a credit rating downgrade, because it isn't one of our creditors.
    Can't threaten us with military action, because it has no military.
    Can't sue us, because we are acting legally.

    It won't give us a trade deal?
    The EU has no choice here. We won't accept a trade deal with the EU.
    It can't give us a trade deal because we won't accept one.

    The EU court will have primacy over UK courts. No, it won't.
    Your position can be as clear as you like. No one really cares. It's irrelevant.
    Not in the EU. The EU is none of my business.
    Carry on EU. Talk amongst yourselves.

    Norway and Switzerland may pay you tribute, you may pay us tribute.
    We will not pay you tribute.

    You don't rule here and if you piss us about, you won't rule anywhere. We will just bomb you into the stone age.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
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  3. Blücher

    Blücher Active Member

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    The clear position was referred to the negotiation of the Brexit but it's also true for the plans for Europe. The Treaty of Rome (1957) determined the way the EU took and you can find there all aspects of todays EU.

    As a German I look at our neighbours and can summarize that we don't have any significant disputes with them, like minorities rights or border disputes, questions which provoked a lot of wars in the past. Something new has evolved out of the blood-soaked European ground. The EU is far from being perfect but when I look around in the world it's unique in its positive way of forming the future.
     
  4. Latherty

    Latherty Well-Known Member

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    Yes, because they are net exporters to the EU. We are net importers. EU will suffer more than UK from a non-deal. But it would be spread more widely.
     
  5. Blücher

    Blücher Active Member

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    Both sides will suffer, that's for sure but I doubt that a non deal will not harm the UK service industry severe and that's the industry which earns UK's money.
     
  6. Latherty

    Latherty Well-Known Member

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    Again, Germany is a net exporter to the EU. It finances the countries to which it exports. This is a very good little circle of wealth for Germany, provided the southern EU's credit worthiness is sustained. The model crashes when the debts from the southern countries become unsustainable.

    This was tested recently and the EU managed to survive through fire-selling Germany's non-EU assets. There's not much capacity at the moment to repeat that trick.

    Yes, but it must be remembered also that these negotiations are in the public sphere. This is a marketing event for both the EU and the UK.

    The EU is not showing itself to be a commercial place to do business. If it is willing for both sides to lose in order to make a political statement, then clearly that is not the place you want to HQ your European operations. A representative office, for sure. But its too risky to business continuity to home the HQ.
     
  7. Blücher

    Blücher Active Member

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    The EU can't move in certain issues or the EU is history but the UK ignores that fact constantly. There will be no cherry picking, out is out.
     
  8. Latherty

    Latherty Well-Known Member

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    the EU is history if it can't move in certain areas.

    The most mercantile country in the EU is leaving

    Doesn't that tell you something?
     
  9. Blücher

    Blücher Active Member

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    The EU will not harm its fundaments and that is expected from the UK.
    Even the most mercantile country can make mistakes, seduced by incompetent politicians and an aggressive anti EU yellow press.
     
  10. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Active Member

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    Most people I know in the Insurance industry (Lloyd's of London where I work) that I work with are setting up "passporting" facilities on the corporate side (i.e. non-Lloyd's Insurers) in Europe with Dublin being the favorite at the moment and Lloyd's itself is in the process setting up a "shell" office in Brussels for EU licence passporting in respect of Lloyd's Syndicates. No real issues have arisen. All of the London market (Lloyd's and Non-Lloyd's insurers) comply with the "Solvency II" requirements of the EU.

    In terms of the banking side I can't really say other than I have heard no real issues from poeple I know - again its just a case of getting the "passporting" facilites in place which I would imagine are already done since they all have continental outlets.
     
  11. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    If the EU is willing to damage business to make a political statement, the prospectus it is sending to the world is "don't do business here".

    Service industries in Europe aren't governed by the EU.
    They aren't covered by the EU agreement.

    Inside or outside the EU, we have no EU deal on services.
    Which we were promised. which we repeatedly negotiated, which we have paid for and never got.

    So now the deal is off. The EU negotiated in bad faith. Lied to us and cheated us. And that is the reputation you have in this world.
    Not an acceptable partner.


    We don't care if the EU says it can't move on issues.
    It can move, it just doesn't want to.
    It wants to make political statement. That the EU is the UK's boss.

    And if it cant move on that political position, the UK will ultimately kill them all.
    This is very stupid position. And you can move on it. And you have just been moved on it.

    Trade will continue. By force if necessary.
    Sheep who pick fights with lions get eaten.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
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  12. Latherty

    Latherty Well-Known Member

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    You see the problem is, the EU is trying to make it a mistake, and to rig the game to make that happen, even if it hurts itself doing so.
    Its really bad news for anyone considering basing themselves there.
     
  13. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    It's really bad news for EU credibility.

    The problem for the EU is not that the EU is trying to punish the UK, it is that it is unable to.
    Powerless. So the more public they make these attempts, the more they undermine their own authority.
    The more obvious it becomes to the world, that they have no power to deliver on their words.

    The EU trying to screw the economy to piss off Britain, should be damaging to both Britain and the EU.
    It should be really bad news for all, only it isn't.

    Because the EU produces nothing. It's a bunch of diplomats eating big dinners in a palace. Being sanctioned by your parasites is an advantage.

    And we already have diplomats with embassies in each EU nation. It's a replication of diplomatic apparatus that we already own.
    We don't need the EU to talk to 27 nations. We already talk to them all directly.
    Carry on EU. None of my business.

    If you don't wish to trade with us, no problem.
    If you don't wish to buy our goods or services and you don't wish us to buy yours, no problem.

    If however you are prevented from doing so by some wankers with a political agenda, let us know and we will take them out for you.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
  14. Blücher

    Blücher Active Member

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    The EU isn't responsible for a successful Brexit but for a successful EU. The UK negotiaters want to talk about the free movement of goods, persons, services and capital in the Common Market despite the announcement of all 27 EU countries and the EU itself that these principals aren't not to discuss. Insinsting and talking about a bluff will not help either side.
     
  15. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Well-Known Member

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    Still, the UK is creditor to the EU, not the other way round, who do you think UK is, Spain? Ireland?
     
  16. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Well-Known Member

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    At the end of the day, the EU depends on that payment from the UK because the UK pays for the EU, but the UK doesn't have to pay and could form a trade deal with USA if the two want.
     
  17. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Well-Known Member

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    The EU wants to be/over take the US, but in Europe.
    This is a problem.
     
  18. Latherty

    Latherty Well-Known Member

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    Equally, the UK is not responsible for a successful Brexit or a successful EU but for a successful UK.

    But a successful EU and a successful UK would be more easily achieved through a successful Brexit.

    What is to be discussed if not the principles? Merely insisting that its position is fixed is not a negotiation. If the EU remains intransigent, it will lose out. The UK too, but at least we will have tried to make it work.
     
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  19. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Well-Known Member

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    The Pesky Brits who's always veto'd and made sure Europe knew what it was doing, are going. There's no better time to push ahead with the UK gone, Europe have finally been given the green light to do what they want to, but being Europeans of course, it's going to crash and burn.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
  20. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    This basically covers it.
    We are playing ball. If you wish to also, there is opportunity for you to do so.
    If you don't, no problem.

    We are a front foot forward society. We make every effort to engage with you positively.
    The country does not think the EU is worth the effort and in this I agree.
    But good manners is our style. If you want to make a deal with us, no promises, but we will listen.

    All deals will be cherry picked. We only trade for cherries.
    So if it isn't cherries you have on offer, don't waste your time with us.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017

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