Europe need death penalty now !

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by VotreAltesse, Mar 27, 2018.

  1. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2017
    Messages:
    11,186
    Likes Received:
    3,372
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Germany's not going to like that, or Brussels.
     
  2. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2017
    Messages:
    11,186
    Likes Received:
    3,372
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
  3. VotreAltesse

    VotreAltesse Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2017
    Messages:
    6,163
    Likes Received:
    3,096
    Trophy Points:
    113
    They would like even less that we don't pay our contribution to EU.
     
  4. AltLightPride

    AltLightPride Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2017
    Messages:
    2,034
    Likes Received:
    1,215
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Jihadists are the textbook example of why the death penalty is pointless. The authoritarian right wants blood for the sake of it even if it doesnt achieve anything.
    They're nothing but a hate group, just like the authoritarian left.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
  5. VotreAltesse

    VotreAltesse Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2017
    Messages:
    6,163
    Likes Received:
    3,096
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Okay, some jihadists are returning from Syria to France. What they will do ? Kill people. There is 130 000 policemen in France, 25 000 people to watch, to watch all of them 24H/24, you would need at least 200 000 people if not 250 000.

    Their GDP/Inhabitant is largely superior.

    Or because they didn't had mass migration.

    Some people are violent, sadic, irrespective, if they don't want to change, they won't. China and Japan don't have that much fancy criminal care systems, they don't have that much criminality.

    That can have some use, however, those solutions aren't magical. They can't replace a harsh crime repression system. They can complete it.

    I prefer that to free rapists or sadists.

    Yes.

    You're right, I'm someone very emotive. But "neutral and rational" approach doesn't work. For how many time we know that there is a problem ? Big riots were in 2005, first terrorist attack in 2012, we lighted candles, called to calm. What is the consequence ? Hundred of death of innocent people.
     
  6. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2017
    Messages:
    11,186
    Likes Received:
    3,372
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Again, something the EU isn't going to like;
    First the death penalty and then not paying what France has committed itself to pay the EU?
    It's not going to happen.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
  7. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2017
    Messages:
    11,186
    Likes Received:
    3,372
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    How about no death penalty and France continues to pay into the EU;
    That's the only thing the EU's going to like.
     
  8. Montegriffo

    Montegriffo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2017
    Messages:
    10,673
    Likes Received:
    8,942
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Not stocks, those are pillories.
     
  9. VotreAltesse

    VotreAltesse Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2017
    Messages:
    6,163
    Likes Received:
    3,096
    Trophy Points:
    113
    What I mean is : If the EU want to prevent us to fight terrorism, we could have retaliation measures like stop giving money to EU. The can don't like it, France, even as degraded than today is still extremly important today and we can make this union blow up.
     
  10. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    Messages:
    14,841
    Likes Received:
    4,815
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Where are you getting the 25 000 figure from? I was under the impression there are around 1000 French citizens in Syria and not all of them will be all out jihadists or pose any immediate threat if they returned to France. I’d have no issue with the worst offenders being convicted of criminal offences on their return and imprisoned as necessary.

    That’s a recent factor but they’ve long had better criminal justice outcomes, including with recidivism rates, which aren’t going to be hugely impacted by immigration factors.

    That’s what I’m saying too, I’m talking about a holistic system. You’re just picking up on singular ideas you think will make you feel better. You’ve not even settled on any kind of consistent proposal, let alone attempted to justify it in any kind of practical terms. All we really know so far is that you want to see some people killed.

    It can and does. It general isn’t allowed to because of emotive, irrational, self-centred and short-sighted people like you and the jihadists.
     
  11. VotreAltesse

    VotreAltesse Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2017
    Messages:
    6,163
    Likes Received:
    3,096
    Trophy Points:
    113
    25 000 are the number of "fiche S" (fiche surveillance, surveillance card, it's a document emited by french service secret for people who have to been watched).
    The problem of the people who come back from Syria is that being in Syria isn't itself a crime. And for the crimes they commited, rape, genocide, murder, all the proof stayed in Syria, so there is no way to judge them for what they comitted.

    What do you call "recent" ? Immigration started in the 60's.

    Exactly, I would like to see some people safe and not been killed. I don't believe anymore in the classical solutions, they obviously failed.

    Emotive yes, irrational no. If not wanting any of my relative get killed is short sighted, I assume that, if it's not wanting my french brothers and sister not being killed is self centered.

    Death penalty isn't maybe necessary right now, but an extremly harsh repression is. We need prison places, a lot.
     
  12. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    Messages:
    14,841
    Likes Received:
    4,815
    Trophy Points:
    113
    In which case your proposal of execution after a trial is no more useful. Again, you really don’t seem to have settled on what you’re actually looking to achieve so are just going around in blind circles. You should step back and rethink if you’re serious about it.

    Immigration started thousands of years ago. There have been various phases of modern migration to (and from) various European countries since World War 1 but the kind of “mass immigration” referred to in this context has been mainly over the past couple of decades.

    And your 21st Century solution is execution by guillotine? I think you misunderstood the term “cutting edge” there. ;)

    Emotive is irrational by definition, that’s the problem. The short-sighted element is not seeing that a campaign of executing people you accuse of being jihaddists risks inspiring even more jihadists to follow them, increasing the treat to you and your relatives. As for your French brothers and sisters, you want some of them to be killed (maybe thousands of them, we’re still not clear on that) and you’ve apparently given no consideration to the impact that could have on other innocent people. You think this will make you and yours safe and that is all you care about.

    More prison places is a sign of failure. What we need are fewer criminals (including terrorists but domestic crime obviously accounts for 99% of the prison population). Invest in the crime prevention, drug treatment, rehabilitation and general social services for the entire population and you will reduce that prison population and open up places for those dangerous criminals who do need to be locked up.
     
  13. VotreAltesse

    VotreAltesse Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2017
    Messages:
    6,163
    Likes Received:
    3,096
    Trophy Points:
    113
    If they die, they won't kill people.

    Yes, you're right, I'm speaking of mass islamic/african migration. Not I want to particulary blame african, but if you go in a go zone, you will find north or subsaharian african, there is no problems with chinese community.

    By the way killing people isn't a solution itself but the return of a true repressive policy about crimes and beviour that souldn't be accepted is.

    So what, the policy of not doing anything is working ? We tried a solution who didn't worked. The best is to try a solution, and I have one : crush djihadist/

    Yes, my friends, my family is mostly what I care. About myself, I have health problems and nobody depend of me, so I don't wish to die but I don't care if I do. Let's admit I exaggerated. Death penalty isn't maybe necessary if we have true life sentence.

    Personnaly what I consider a sign of failure is a guy who was arrested for owning in an illegal way weapons while being radicalized and was set free less one year after, this guy killed 4 people last week. It is what I call a failure, because we could have prevented that if we didn't let that scum out our alive.
    What I consider a failure is that a woman who survived Hitler reign of terror was murdered by a guy who was arrested less than a year before for sexual assault.
    What I consider a failure is that we reach a so violent society that a 61 year crippled man get murdered for a cigarette.
    People die because we don't open enough prison places, people get heavily injuried.

    Every society need fewer criminals.

    Invest in the crime prevention, drug treatment, rehabilitation and general social services for the entire population and you will reduce that prison population and open up places for those dangerous criminals who do need to be locked up.[/QUOTE]

    That's the strategy we used for twenty years in France. It failed. It worked maybe in Norway, but it failed in France. French people aren't nords.
     
  14. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2017
    Messages:
    11,186
    Likes Received:
    3,372
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The EU will sue because France promised to contribute and have no death penalty, there's no going back from these facts of the EU and EU membership no matter how much money or resources a country contributes.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
  15. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    Messages:
    14,841
    Likes Received:
    4,815
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You missed the point. As you said, the French citizens in Syria haven’t broken French law so you couldn’t have a trial and execution any more than you could have a trail and imprisonment.

    That’s because that’s where the mass immigration is from. There are various places around the world with immigration problems, the nature of the immigrants is generally irrelevant. And yes, the ghettos France pushed all the brown people to be ignored have surprisingly become hubs of major social problems.

    Then stop proposing we kill people and talk about this “repressive policy”. Please take some time to actually think about it first though because I’m not convinced you’ve got any further than “Be repressive at them!”.

    No it isn’t. France, like here in the UK and most other western nations, have singularly failed to serious invest in any kind of proper crime management policies. It’s all been short-term, quick answers and sounding tough to get people like you to vote for them for another couple of years. They’ll keep promising you more prison places and tough sentencing, they might even follow through occasionally, but they won’t actually do any of the difficult things that might actually work. You see, they’re like you; they care about themselves and ther families, they don’t care about you.
     
  16. VotreAltesse

    VotreAltesse Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2017
    Messages:
    6,163
    Likes Received:
    3,096
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I didn't said they didn't broke the french law, I said being in Syria itself don't broke the law. Raping, murdering, commiting genocide are against the french law. But where the proof stayed ? In Syria.

    Yes, the nature of migrants is relevant. The aim isn't to blame african as a whole, but go walk in a chinese or a jewish district then in an arabic one or subsaharian one, you will see the difference.
    Polish, spanish, italian and portuguese didn't created half of the problem. It's not about blaming all black or arabs, but from a macroscopic point of view, mass migration of african = problems, and it don't erase the quality of many black or arabic individuals. About colour of skin, there is important chinese population in France = 0 problems.
    When you take people from countries with violence, don't be surprized those violence come back in your country.

    Those ghettos were build in the 70's and were for the standart of the epoch extremly comfortable, so the "ghettos", the HLM aren't a tragedy. I know many countryside zones where housing is much much worst.
    Furthermore, if it's ghetto, it's too because white people got tired to be assautled. Racism from white people exist, racist on white too. So yes, at a moment white people were bored and searched other places to live, not always more comfortable.

    If not death sentence, we need to have life sentence.

    Yes, too because we live in a society who consider that people, especially black and brown people aren't responsible of their acts. That is what I call leftism racism, because I always see leftist people search much more excused to a black or a brown individual as if they were less responsible. A society who don't consider people responsible create generations of impulsive, irresponsible idiots.
    Our whole society is build on irresponsibility : heavy socialcare, small sentences, culture of mediocrity.
    France refused to build more prison, the results : thugs set free, the could contaminate the easily influenced kids. We have a part of the population who have been turn into thugs, who create a parallel society and who suck a part of the youth in their thug/djihadist mentality.


    I like long terms solution, but here is the problem :
    The mid term problem is simple : breaking jihadism before it start a civil war.

    We're turning in circles in our arguments and I don't see the interest to continue, it's not I don't want to continue this discussion with you, but obviously the dialogue is stuck. I don't blame you, neiter I blame me for that.
     
  17. VotreAltesse

    VotreAltesse Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2017
    Messages:
    6,163
    Likes Received:
    3,096
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yes, it mean conflict, but we can win a conflict agaisnt EU, because they need us, and we're already very deep in a bad society, so we have less and less to loose. EU have something to loose, we have less and less things to loose if we're heading to what I'm thinking we're heading.
     
  18. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2017
    Messages:
    11,186
    Likes Received:
    3,372
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The European Court of Human Rights has abolished it.
    Article 3 says we can't even extradite people from Europe to America if they face the likelihood of Death Row.
    https://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/FS_Death_penalty_ENG.pdf
    I'm not sure if it was the actual act of the execution or the psychological trauma but time served on Death Row that was in breach of Article 3, but it still means you can't even do that.

    It's been agreed to abolish capital punishment, and France agreed to contribute finances to finance the EU.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
  19. VotreAltesse

    VotreAltesse Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2017
    Messages:
    6,163
    Likes Received:
    3,096
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yes, we don't agreed to get slaughtered through Jihad however.
     
  20. cerberus

    cerberus Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2015
    Messages:
    25,530
    Likes Received:
    5,363
    Trophy Points:
    113
     
    VotreAltesse likes this.
  21. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2017
    Messages:
    11,186
    Likes Received:
    3,372
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    No you didn't, however, the agreement of no capital punishment and EU contributions means France's decision to reinstate capital punishment is an issue for the European Court of Human Rights.
    Make a case for that court and justify the deterrent required to prevent anybody thinking of doing some harm; - And then understand, any Jihadists, it's probably an incentive of martyrdom sending a message to them making them look forward not remorseful of their crime waiting for their forty virgins when the day comes.
    Will it be a deterrent? Or will it be a way into paradise for these Jihadists?/Increase the slaughter even more?
    It's a dangerous threat.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2018
  22. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2017
    Messages:
    11,186
    Likes Received:
    3,372
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    How about...
    Call Jihadism a mental illness and discredit Jihadists as nothing but a serious mental illness, and encourage the image that they're ill. Try and diagnose it, as much as you can.
    Say terrorist training was a perverted child abuse that made them ill.
    Then offer them the way out. But the message has to be everywhere that they're ill.
    Also, medicate and detain them in psychiatric wards if caught plotting.
    Section them under the mental health act and do some training and medicating of your own?

    It will mean an automatic insanity plee to any attackers caught alive, but it'll confine them to a life of lock and key and medication in a secure hospital somewhere treating them of their thoughts under suicide watch if need be.
    Illumination of the desire to do it, the tell tale signs of thinking about doing it be apparent to them, and the reward of get carted to an insane asylum and labelled as mentally ill and call it a form of stress, whatever.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2018
  23. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2016
    Messages:
    9,744
    Likes Received:
    2,086
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Foutaise!

    Death by hanging or chopping off a culprit's head never stopped another killing. Ever.

    Anyone is a fool, warped by the pleasure of ultimate pain delivered, to think they are detering humans from being humans. We are what we are, warts and all.

    But killing one another legally is NOT acceptable. Besides, putting someone away for the rest of their lives (which wastes them daily) is a lot more horrifying than letting take a quick-out by having the state kill them.

    We've been killing one another since the dawn of time. Stoopid people do stoopid things. Killing is an economic phenomenon - the lower one is on the income-ladder the more prone they are to taking lives.

    Every day, day-after-day, a prisoner who has committed that crime and is put away must ask themselves, "What the hell am I doing here?"

    And the answer is "Making reparations daily for the life you ended so quickly by living uselessly!"

    Horrible ...
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2018
  24. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2016
    Messages:
    9,744
    Likes Received:
    2,086
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Bollocks! What war in Europe "that could happen". Where? Why? How? (Russia wont even move back into Poland. Putin's move into the Crimea was a no-show, and as soon as Putin is gone, the Ukraine is going to repossess a useless port that serves no military purpose since all ships must pass by Istanbul in order to enter the Mediterranean Sea.)

    Or, perhap you actually think that 740 million members of the EU are going to go to war with one another and destroy the peace that has given them the best existence since Europe was first populated.

    Aint gonna happin ...
     
  25. cerberus

    cerberus Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2015
    Messages:
    25,530
    Likes Received:
    5,363
    Trophy Points:
    113
    There are criminals, like murderers, paedophiles, rapists, psychopaths etc who might not agree with you, and they would prefer to be put down like the mad dogs they are, rather than waste away for years confined in a cell; so who are you to speak for them? It they prefer a quick dispatch then why shouldn't they have their wish?
     

Share This Page