Evidence for The Creator: Entropy

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by usfan, Mar 13, 2020.

  1. edthecynic

    edthecynic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2014
    Messages:
    3,530
    Likes Received:
    1,025
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Atoms order themselves NATURALLY according to the number of electrons in their outer shell. These electrons are called valence electrons. Look it up and learn something about science.
    For example if you put H2 and O2 together, without the hand of any intelligent designer you get H2O, not H2O2 or OH. That is because O which has 6 valence electrons in its outer shell and each H has 1 valence electron giving the molecule H2O 8 electrons in its outer shell which is the magic number for outer shells of stable molecules!
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2020
  2. edthecynic

    edthecynic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2014
    Messages:
    3,530
    Likes Received:
    1,025
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Doesn't entropy lose if there is an outside force, and doesn't there have to be an outside force depositing the dust you are cleaning? So it is not entropy that is winning but an outside force!
     
    Derideo_Te likes this.
  3. edthecynic

    edthecynic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2014
    Messages:
    3,530
    Likes Received:
    1,025
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Again I gave you proof, it is YOU dogmatically asserting with no facts AT ALL that the non-entropic electron is losing energy yet still maintaining its orbit with less energy than what is required to maintain its orbit.
     
  4. Quasar44

    Quasar44 Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2020
    Messages:
    2,939
    Likes Received:
    915
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The shell stuff does not exist !!!
    Electrons don’t obey neat shells
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2020
  5. Quasar44

    Quasar44 Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2020
    Messages:
    2,939
    Likes Received:
    915
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    net entropy always goes up !! This is basic thermodynamics
     
  6. Quasar44

    Quasar44 Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2020
    Messages:
    2,939
    Likes Received:
    915
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    You can vacuum and reduce local entropy on the floor but all the energy and heat done to perform the task will rise faster
     
  7. edthecynic

    edthecynic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2014
    Messages:
    3,530
    Likes Received:
    1,025
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Typical science denier!
    Carbon has a valence of 4.
    [​IMG]
     
  8. edthecynic

    edthecynic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2014
    Messages:
    3,530
    Likes Received:
    1,025
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Not in a stable atom!
     
  9. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2017
    Messages:
    20,620
    Likes Received:
    8,982
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Then, in your opinion, you are just energy. That is the totality of your existence. You have no purpose other than to live, breath and die. Where does your "energy> go after that? It's a very non purposeful world you live in. It is the crowning point of narcissism. Guess you are fulfilled by the false wisdom you feel you possess.
     
    ToddWB likes this.
  10. edthecynic

    edthecynic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2014
    Messages:
    3,530
    Likes Received:
    1,025
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It's better than your purpose in life of misleading people about science, the crowning point of ignorance. Guess you are fulfilled by the false knowledge you feel you possess.
     
  11. edthecynic

    edthecynic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2014
    Messages:
    3,530
    Likes Received:
    1,025
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Dust has nothing to do with entropy!
     
  12. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2017
    Messages:
    20,620
    Likes Received:
    8,982
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I'm waiting for your scientific explanation to my question as to where does your energy go when you die. Is all of your information just lost?....bearing no resemblance to your person? Please show me much of what you have said is not ignorant assumption (though I believe it is)
     
  13. edthecynic

    edthecynic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2014
    Messages:
    3,530
    Likes Received:
    1,025
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Already did more than once! Pay attention.
     
  14. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2010
    Messages:
    18,423
    Likes Received:
    886
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Sure, just like a kid can build a ziggurat out of Legos without the hand of the designer of Legos.
     
  15. usfan

    usfan Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2012
    Messages:
    6,878
    Likes Received:
    1,056
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Only 'our' universe? In our space and time? What other universes are there?

    I've only talked about entropy, as it relates to our universe, and our observations in space and time, for as far back as we can see, scientifically and historically.

    Speculations of some alternate dimensions that have different rules is science fiction.

    The 'big bang' is also a speculative theory, with fantastic, unprovable assumptions.

    The only 'nonsense!', is making dogmatic assertions about something you cannot possibly 'know'.

    'Plenty of energy, for 10 billion years!'
    :rolleyes:

    ..the pseudoscience pretension, and dogmatic assertion of belief among progressive indoctrinees is mind boggling..

    Pitching labels like an atheist, with no scientific or logical rebuttal, is much more indicative of progressive Indoctrination than the accusations thrown.
    :rolleyes:
    Right. You 'know!' from the eternal existence of matter and energy, that there is no Creator..

    Dogmatically declaring your religious beliefs is not a scientific argument.

    You cannot possibly 'know' that matter or energy 'always existed!', and the belief in the big bang contradicts your assertion of uniformity of matter and energy, as eternally unchanged factors.

    Some time back i posted this analysis of the big bang belief:
    http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/big-bang-belief.563697/

    So according to your own belief, neither matter NOR energy were as we observe, now. At one time, so it is asserted, ALL matter and energy was compressed into the size of a particle, then exploded,

    WMAP observations also support an add-on to the big bang framework to account for the earliest moments of the universe. Called "inflation," the theory says that the universe underwent a dramatic early period of expansion, growing by more than a trillion trillion-fold in less than a trillionth of a trillionth of a second. Tiny fluctuations were generated during this expansion that eventually grew to form galaxies..

    This is all a wonderful, imaginative belief.. but to assert it as 'settled science!', is an insult to True Science, and sound scientific methodology.
    It is a false correlation to assume the atomic structure is 'the same!', as galaxies and solar systems, that have measurable entropy in their orbital decays, burnt out stars, and other cosmological observations.

    How, Why, What, or even Who, regarding nuclear 'glue', is another cosmic mystery. But neither atoms, nor compounds, nor chemical reactions are immune from the effects of entropy. Entropy rules, in our universe, with an iron fist. Nobody and nothing can escape its reach, and the simple fact of universal entropy makes the big bang, abiogenesis, and common ancestry impossible. There is nothing and nobody, in a godless universe, to 'create' order from randomness and chaos. There is nothing and nobody to 'create' life, and the amazing complexity and diversity we observe. ONLY an Intelligent Designer, with Extra-Natural Ability, could have ordered the universe, winding down, as it is, under the inescapable effects of Entropy.
     
    ToddWB and yabberefugee like this.
  16. usfan

    usfan Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2012
    Messages:
    6,878
    Likes Received:
    1,056
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    A false correlation, with asserted dogmatic belief, is hardly 'proof!'

    :roll:

    ..it is not even evidence. It is imagination and belief, posing as 'science!'

    The nuclear composition of matter, and the theories of how it all is held together, do not disprove entropy, as a universal Law. Something (or SomeOne) holds everything together, in a mysterious dance of particulates, but they are not exempt from the Laws of Entropy. Every compound.. every element.. is seeking randomness and equilibrium. NOTHING increases in order or complexity, without a Force designed to do so.
     
    ToddWB and yabberefugee like this.
  17. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2011
    Messages:
    10,833
    Likes Received:
    4,092
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I'm not actually focusing on the multiverse here. I am responding to this:
    "then what (or Who) 'wound it up!'? My argument is that entropy (and other facts of science) would have prohibited this 'ordering' process at the beginning"

    So it seems that you are asking where the energy in the universe came from. The big bang theory only explains the expansion of the universe, and doesn't explain where the initial universe came from. We also know that time is part of space-time and is part of our universe, but may not exist outside our universe.

    Its possible that the energy in our universe existed in some timeless state in a timeless realm (like a multiverse or where God lives), and it got expanded with the big bang and time started. Or maybe that energy was transformed from some other state. Or maybe it popped into existence like particles with quantum mechanics. Maybe God initiated this process or some force in this timeless realm.

    In a timeless realm or state before the big bang, entropy doesn't make sense, because entropy takes time to degrade things. We don't know where the universe came from, and there is no evidence entropy was a thing before the big bang, you can only use it as an argument after the big bang.
     
    yabberefugee likes this.
  18. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2017
    Messages:
    20,620
    Likes Received:
    8,982
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    There is a segment of the population, I believe, that only pursues science because they want to disprove God. I think it is obvious. If, through science, they were to prove there is God, they wouldn't accept it anyway. We know, in the design of things "without faith it is impossible to be pleasing to God."
     
    usfan and ToddWB like this.
  19. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2011
    Messages:
    10,833
    Likes Received:
    4,092
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It is human nature to hold onto your beliefs stubbornly. This is called cognitive dissonance. Instead of letting our beliefs be shaped purely by the facts and the evidence, we let our previously beliefs interpret new evidence, we cherry pick the evidence we want to see, and try hard to refute evidence we don't want to believe.

    Cognitive dissonance is in all of us and we all do it. Religious people do it, atheists do it, scientists you do it, I do it, and you do it. So, if evidence came out for God, most atheists would be resistant, and I would probably be resistant to a certain extent to. If evidence came out against a belief in God, religious people would be resistant to that, probably more because of faith.

    Faith presents a problem here. Religious people often use their faith as a way to legitimize their cognitive dissonance. They will turn off their brains to conflicting facts, and try hard to refute or ignore it, because of their faith. Faith is fine when you believe in a legitimate authority and there is evidence this is an authority we can trust. But it is not fine when it is in an authority that has not been verified and used as an excuse not to consider other points of view.
     
  20. ToddWB

    ToddWB Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2018
    Messages:
    6,219
    Likes Received:
    5,403
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    People dismiss evidence all the time if it does not comply to their beliefs.. I don't believe in craft from our universe but from outside our solar system, I do acknowledge their are truly UFOs but whether or not they come from another planet, I don't think so, I do posit they may be interdimensional. . By the same token I do believe in entities from "elsewhere" as I have ample evidence for their existence, I have seen what we call "the black shadow" and it was confirmed independently by at least 4 other people.. when I say independently.. I meant those other people revealed what they had seen with zero prompting from me.
     
  21. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2017
    Messages:
    20,620
    Likes Received:
    8,982
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Faith is how I live my life. I put my trust in it because I am very distrustful of human nature. Have been from the very beginning. I love the Word. I have been able to trust it in every aspect. I am often skeptical about others commentary on it, but when it rings true to what I have read, I embrace it. My personal faith has little to do with what others do. I do share it when the subject comes up. Jackson Browne, who I do not know his beliefs wrote a song, and a couple of the words ring true to this day.....
    "In the end there is one dance you'll do alone"
     
    ToddWB likes this.
  22. edthecynic

    edthecynic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2014
    Messages:
    3,530
    Likes Received:
    1,025
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Of course I made no such claim in your Straw Man argument! I was pointing out the claim that entropy was UNIVERSAL was false by giving a real world example where entropy does NOT apply.
     
  23. edthecynic

    edthecynic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2014
    Messages:
    3,530
    Likes Received:
    1,025
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Pure dogmatic HOGWASH!
     
  24. edthecynic

    edthecynic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2014
    Messages:
    3,530
    Likes Received:
    1,025
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Atoms order themselves NATURALLY according to the number of electrons in their outer shell without the hand of the imaginary "designer" of the atom or the hand of some kid!!!! These electrons are called valence electrons. Look it up and learn something about science.
    For example if you put H2 and O2 together, without the hand of any intelligent designer you get H2O, not H2O2 or OH. That is because O which has 6 valence electrons in its outer shell and each H has 1 valence electron giving the molecule H2O 8 electrons in its outer shell which is the magic number for outer shells of stable molecules!
     
  25. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2011
    Messages:
    10,833
    Likes Received:
    4,092
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You are right to be distrustful of human nature. Faith is part of human nature, so I suggest you take a good hard look at it. Faith (if synonymous to trust) is an intellectual shortcut. We don't have the time to thoroughly investigate the evidence behind every claim or action and need some quick way of making decisions. So if your doctors says you have a certain problem, you are probably going to have a lot of trust in what he says. Doctors do get things wrong but they are less likely to be wrong than you are and you certainly should give their opinion a lot of weight. That is the kind of faith I like. Its perfectly fine to have trust in a reputable source when there is evidence the source is reputable (degree, references, a high rating, etc). But at the same time we do understand that there is a chance the source can be wrong and its always good to get a second opinion when in doubt.
     
    yabberefugee likes this.

Share This Page