Existence: What is the point?

You again revert to adhom unable to answer a very simple question.
Deflect all you want you clearly have no answer.

 

I am wrong for assuming rationality in posters.. too maddening to attempt rational discussion with disrupters.. that is your goal, no?
..better if i pass, and let you heckle by yourself..

 

Better if you deflect and use adhoms, rather than prove any gods declared objective meaning is not subjective.

 

What? Only one lone heckler? Where are your droogies?


Don't want to talk philosophy, so threadshit so nobody can? ..kinda pathetic, is it not?

..nevermind. even your heckling is boring.. see you around.. maybe..

 

Do you want to continue with adhom or provide proof that any gods declared objective meaning is not subjective. Why not stop the faux angst and address the question.

What proof do you have that any gods declared objective meaning is not subjective?

 

Back to the topic:

Man cannot stand a meaninless life. ~Carl Jung

Man is a useless passion. It is meaningless that we live and it is meaningless that we die. Jean-Paul Sartre

One can forget the meaninglessness of his own existence by occupying himself with scientific experiments of dubious import. Countless scientists and scholars spend their lives in the search of truths that are irrelevant to them. John Silber

The grand thing about the human mind is that it can turn its own tables and see meaninglessness as ultimate meaning. John Cage

It is most interesting, to me, that even among professing atheists, this 'need', for meaning and purpose exists. Unable to accept the conclusions of their beliefs, they invent self soothing reasons for their empty lives, just like the theists they so roundly despise.

Theists invent God, so they say, to keep from facing an empty, meaningless universe. Yet they do the same, pretending significance and meaning in their empty, meaningless lives. It is hypocritical, but that is also a common human foible.

They do share a common 'need': to feel significant.

Why would that 'need' be there, in a purely material universe?

 

So in summary,
Usfan has failed to show,


That a life with no objective purpose is an unintended consequence of philosophical opinions.

He has further failed to show that any gods declared objective purpose is anything other than subjective.

 

I do not claim any objective meaning in my life, I do however claim subjective meaning. We all have the power to make our lives subjectively meaningful, that you chose not to exercise that power is your issue not mine.

 

Sorry but cause and effect exists with or without your imaginary god. And pretending that if there was a god man would be able to understand it's motives is just plain idiotic, unless of course god is a creation of man instead of vice versa.

 

You confuse unsupported opinion with truth.

 

Four examples of your deflection when four different posters asked more or less the same question!

 

1) Existence is infinite - as per my proof (sans the intervention of God) .. and no matter can not be destroyed - only transformed into a different form as per the "Law of conservation of mass".

2) correct

3) correct

4) There is a cause .. there is always a cause. Regardless of whether or not the cause is supernatural, or natural - does not mean it is meaningless. Non sequitur fallacy. Just because God may not exist - does not make life meaningless. Just because God might exist - does not necessarily give meaning to life.

 

Doesn't all that begging for a ticket focus on "forgiving" all the exclusionary crap they did?

 

This is a question whose answer is difficult if not impossible for many to face. But the truth is that all is futility.

We are seemingly driven to hold our existence, our history, our potentials, and our future as things that are unquestionably of ultimate importance. Their importance is a "given". So don't even think about it. It's all that matters. -literally.

But the truth is that all is futility. Consider all that exists for a moment. That means, consider the cosmos, the countless galaxies, and mysteries of black holes, the colliding stars and galaxies and planets, the mysteries we know nothing about, like dark matter ...... consider it all for a moment. And then think about how totally inconsequential we are in that context.

We play a game called "life in the world". But it is our invention. Our earth could be vaporized tomorrow by an energy beam of a quasar 100 billion light years away, ending everything here in an instant. And the universe wouldn't even notice. Heck, the quasar itself wouldn't be affected in the least. There would be no caring. It would be "all things as usual and normal" throughout the universe. There would be no effect of our existence on anything except for a lost and wandering Voyager or Mars lander or other item somewhere else instantly rendered as "space trash" by our termination.

So the only importance of our existence is the importance to ourselves of how we live, here, on our own little speck of dirt called "earth".

Humanity has created belief systems of gods from the beginning of human existence. And from the beginning those systems have served to provide us with a reason to live and a reason to kill each other. Beyond that they also served to give selected people great power over the rest of us. And we still seem to require such reasons, structures, and crutches.

 

There is no point.

But they do have a webcam...

 

You are more than welcome to that unsupported opinion.

Nobody ever gets into Heaven that way...

...so do the board a favor and ease up on the stupid, there's a good fellow.

 

And here I was thinking that all sinners need do is repent and beg for forgiveness and they get their ticket to paradise.
I do agree my choice of words in this instance should be less offensive when engaging a true believer.

But don't confuse my unwarranted irritation for stupidity, there's a good fellow.

 

Absolute individuation is probably an illusion in our plane of material existence. Despite so much reverence for self-identity, each of us is apparently subordinate to a "higher self" and is a composite being linked to many others in scattered and mixed incarnations across time and space. As one inquisitive seeker was told, There are parts of you yet to be transformed. Nobody goes from itty bitty to wholeness alone.

 

..tell this to some of your fellow atheists, who pretend to have some higher, 'meaning! and Purpose!' for their existence.

Your conclusions here are the only logical conclusions for a godless universe.

Perhaps they are not willing to give up all their crutches?

The grand thing about the human mind is that it can turn its own tables and see meaninglessness as ultimate meaning. John Cage

 

Anyone want to tackle this question?

 

It seems that we mostly agree, except for the eternal existence of matter. The mysteries of the nuclear levels are not fully known, and assumptions of 'eternal!' are impossible to prove or even predict.

'Cause' is not usually used, in naturalistic explanations. Those are mostly hypotheses or theories at best, or speculations. Cause implies an intent or agenda, imo, and is usually contextual with supernatural origins.

But i will accept a naturalistic 'cause', as long as any implications of meaning or purpose are omitted.

 

I would call that a belief. I do not see a consensus of collective connectedness among the human animal, but widely divergent beliefs and speculations about the nature of the 'soul' or even consciousness.
It does seem obvious that we must all do 2 things, alone:
1. Believing
2. Dying

Whatever the Truth is, or any consequence of belief, we do it alone, before God, if He is there. And if not, we still do those things alone, with no one to help or blame.

 

Sure. Evolution. It supports and advances the drive to survive AND help the specie survive.

 

By cause I do not imply an intent or agenda. "Cause and Effect" I am using the term in the Newtonian sense. For every action there is a reaction. Also I am using the term in relation to an external cause which can include a supernatural being.

So while "cause" can imply a supernatural origin - this is not always the case and I would say not normally the case.

I am not sure what you mean by the "external existence of matter" ? There are external forces that can act on matter.

The point I will try to clarify is that there is a third option.

Option 1 - God blinked and the world was created. God intervened further to create humans and continues to intervene.
Option 2 - There is no God. The forces of nature are what they are .. everything that happens is a result of those forces - the laws of the universe so to speak.

Option 3 - The universe itself knows it exists and can - through use of will - manifest a thought into physical reality. In this case God is not an external actor in the normal sense.

For example: Existence is a strange thing. One day you woke up and realized you existed. The matter/energy gained knowledge of its own existence. This is an incredible thing if you think about it.

What is perhaps more incredible is that thoughts/ awareness managed to manifest into physical reality.

Look down at your index finger on your right hand. Now move your finger. Tell me how you did that ? You willed it to happen. A thought was manifested into physical reality. How did this happen the first time ? It is one thing to be aware .. another for that awareness to be able to make things happen .. manifest into physical reality.

Does a tree know it exists ? Perhaps but it does not have the same capabilities as a human to manifest that awareness into physical reality.

OK ... what we do not have is the ability to control things outside our bodies (sans stories of telekinesis )

I claim that if some entity had this ability - on a high level - the ability to manipulate energy and matter through force of will .. one is then a God.

So then ... if God is the universe .. God is not actually acting on something outside its own body through force of will. The will of God merely acts on its own body ... just in a way that is far greater than the ability of a human.

Option 4 - this is more a variation of the others. God is the universe - or not - and has set up the rules and does not intervene in general.

God may well exist - that does not mean that God intervenes. The rules are what the rules are. This is intelligent design but, one in which God did not make the earth and everything else in 7 days. He set the ball in motion and what happened happened. Evolution exists because that is what the laws of the universe are designed to create.

I am going to stop here but - there is much more to say along this line of thinking.

 

"The point" of existence is necessary.