Felons CAN have guns, they just can not have firearms

Discussion in 'Gun Control' started by JakeJ, Jul 25, 2017.

  1. JakeJ

    JakeJ Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Federal law exempts almost all firearms made prior to 1898 and allows black powder muzzleloaders reproductions including handguns. Under federal law, such guns are not firearms.

    While the old 44 single action cap and balls are plenty deadly, there also are cartridge revolvers in all calibers up to .455 in double action revolvers, the most common being 32 and 38 S&W, which are black powder cartridges. These are plenty deadly.

    For example, is is NOT a firearm:

    [​IMG]

    This is a double action Smith & Wesson 38. Or maybe you want a Colt or H&K. Federal law says this is not a firearm. There also are pocket/concealable size 32s and 38s. Lots of them. A tad smaller than modern alloy 38 pocket guns.

    Federal law also says this is not a firearm:

    [​IMG]
    1898 Modernized 7mm Mauser. This is not a firearm according to federal law.

    Both those are for sale online now, no FFL required and legally sent directly to you, even if you are a convicted felon having been convicted of any felony.

    I could post gobs of pictures of .41 cal derringers, 38 caliber handguns including double action 38 pocket size pistols, rifles and shotguns that are NOT firearms. Also, some never had a serial number nor would be illegal to remove a serial number if it has one. Some of the more rugged ones that originally use black powder cartridges have been tested to be fully capable of using modern high pressure ammo as well, meaning firing 38 specials. As such, they are no different than any other 38 special, other than made before 1899 so they are not a firearm, just a gun.

    Since these are not firearms, you also can buy these by mail order and have them sent directly to your house, plus of course you can order ammo for them online as well. Both of those, and many more like it, anyone can order and have shipped directly to them in all but 3 or 4 states. The seller, likely a gun dealer, MAY ask you to prove you are 21 with a photocopy of your (or someone's) DL, but isn't required to.

    State laws vary across the country. There also are exceptions for black powder muzzleloaders - or true reproductions - prior to 1918 in many state laws. Again, a cap and ball 44 black powder revolver is a plenty deadly firearm. Opt for the Remington over the Colt.

    A felon may legally buy as many such non-firearm guns as they can afford mail order. It seems a curious loophole. I suspect not many people know this.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
  2. JakeJ

    JakeJ Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Here is a curious Florida STATE court ruling, as state laws can (and often do) have stricter limits than federal law. For example, Florida has a HUGE list of prohibited ammo, none prohibited by federal law - particularly for shotgun shells. No bolos, darts, razors etc.

    Summary: Felon hunting with a replica black powder muzzleloader that he added a scope to. The trial court and appeals court ruled state law exempted it so he could not be charged as a felon with a firearm. HOWEVER, the state Supreme Court reversed, claiming the scope meant it was not longer a "replica."

    http://oldarchives.courthousenews.com/2016/09/22/florida-felon-gets-courts-ok-on-antique-gun.htm

    This is a HUGE ruling that few in Florida understand (or are brave enough to test). In real terms, it MAY mean you can OPEN CARRY a pre-1918 black powder 44 revolver (all single action) if you have not altered it. Florida does NOT have open carry.

    It also has potential effect in regards to "gun free" zones, since usually the term used is "firearm," not gun in the law. So an "antique" gun MAY be legal in gun free zones. "Antique" guns are as viable now as they were then, which is VERY viable for personal defense.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
  3. Greataxe

    Greataxe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I would show no more mercy for repeat violent felon who used a black powder gun in a violent crime than I would if he used a modern $2,000 FN semi-auto.

    Common street thugs use whatever cheap and common firearms they can steal or buy with drug money. Most live day to day and are quite stupid.
     
  4. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    FL's list of prohibited ammo is not huge--it's a simple sentence.

    Armor-piercing or exploding ammunition or dragon’s breath shotgun shells, bolo shells, or flechette shells prohibited.

    http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ing=&URL=0700-0799/0790/Sections/0790.31.html
     
  5. Just_a_Citizen

    Just_a_Citizen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Lol, personally, as a 2x felon, I wouldn't go splitting hairs on definitions of firearms.
     
  6. DoctorWho

    DoctorWho Well-Known Member

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    Someone needs to study up on firearms definitions.
    I had an F.F.L. a Gun Store, and a Curio & Relic license.
    You will find a Felon cannot legally possess any firearm that can fire catridges that can be purchased or readily obtained, and State laws can still add other prohibitions.

    Example; 1873 Colt single action revolver in .44 short ?
    Felons can't have it.
    A C&R licensee can buy it.
    A Remington 1860 Derringer chambered in .44 Rimfire is chambered in an obsolete cartridge and as such a non gun.
    No blanket policy as far as possesion by a convicted felon.

    There are no loop holes for Felons to buy or possess firearms, only ancient firearms not covered by GCA of 1968.

    By the way, in New York City, when a convicted Felon loads a black powder cap & ball Revolver, it is considered the same as a modern Revolver.
    Felony possesion of a gun.
     
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  7. DoctorWho

    DoctorWho Well-Known Member

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    " 1898 Modernized 7mm Mauser. This is not a firearm according to federal law.

    Both those are for sale online now, no FFL required and legally sent directly to you, even if you are a convicted felon having been convicted of any felony. "

    While those Mausers are not subject to 1968 Gun regulations as far as Interstate sales, possesion by a Felon is still not legal, and a loaded commision Mauser by a convicted Felon is still a jail sentence in most jurisdictions.
     
  8. Deckel

    Deckel Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is a trade-off trying to play state v. feds. even if you get your rights restored as a felon in one state, it still may (as probably will) be against the law in another state and the feds won't recognize the restoration either.
     
  9. DoctorWho

    DoctorWho Well-Known Member

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    That is False.
    Restoration of Rights at the Federal level is not possible at this time as far as I know.
    Relief from disability.
    It is possible at the State level as an expungement, once accomplished, it is a done deal and valid in all States and when a Felony conviction expunged, the 4473 question can be answered in the negative.

    I just helped a freind with an expungement.
     
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  10. Deckel

    Deckel Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    1. You restated what I already said about the federal government in your rush to a declaration that I am false; and

    2. You are wrong and anyone who relies on your advice does so at their own peril. You don't even have to be a convicted felon to be charged and convicted with possession of a firearm by a convicted felon in Virginia, for instance.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017
  11. DoctorWho

    DoctorWho Well-Known Member

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    Yeah.
    Blah blah blah.
    Full of it.
    Anyone doing is not relying on one persons advice or experience.

    I have helped people get expungements in two States.

    You are vainly babbling on about something you have never done.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2017
  12. DoctorWho

    DoctorWho Well-Known Member

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    "
    Is there a way for a prohibited person to restore his or her right to receive or possess firearms and ammunition?
    Although Federal law provides a means for the relief of firearms disabilities, since October 1992, ATF’s annual appropriation has prohibited the expending of any funds to investigate or act upon applications for relief from Federal firearms disabilities submitted by individuals. As long as this provision is included in current ATF appropriations, the Bureau cannot act upon applications for relief from Federal firearms disabilities submitted by individuals.

    [18 U.S.C. 925(c); 27 CFR 478.144]"
     
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  13. Deckel

    Deckel Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Blah blah blah expungement doesn't mean crap. Walk on federal property with an expungement and a gun as a convicted felon and see how quickly you find out you are wrong.
     
  14. DoctorWho

    DoctorWho Well-Known Member

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    Relief from disability at the State level is based on criteria.
    It is accepted Nationally.
     
  15. DoctorWho

    DoctorWho Well-Known Member

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    You have no clue.
    Go buy one for a dollar.
    BPD ?
    If you are expunged at a State level, you are good to go, unless as any civilian, you TRESSPASS onto a Federal building with a gun, ie a Post Office, Court building etc....
    Once expunged, you pass a NICS instant check and answer the form 4473 in the negative.
     
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  16. Deckel

    Deckel Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The federal government recognizes nothing but a Presidential pardon period. When you are arrested it goes into the FBI computer; when you get convicted it goes into the FBI computer and some local judge issuing an expungement order does not get you out of the FBI computers. When your local prosecutor office pulls your record it is still there. The background check computers are not the same system. NCIC is not the same thing as NICS and NCIC is what will send people to prison for possession based on your defective advice based on your wrong understanding of what expungements mean.
     
  17. DoctorWho

    DoctorWho Well-Known Member

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    As usual, you are lots of poo.
    The Judicial system is over the entire system and at the State level determines conviction records and can modify such throughout the record keeping system as determined by point of origin of said (Court) records.

    If State Court overturns a Conviction, this changes any attendent conviction records.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2017
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  18. 6Gunner

    6Gunner Banned

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    Um... no. Once again you demonstrate you don't know a damn thing about what you're talking about.
     
  19. Deckel

    Deckel Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Ask your federal prosecutor demigod what the NCIC is who gets it what it contains and what gets removed from it. In the meantime, go to prison for all I care
     
  20. 6Gunner

    6Gunner Banned

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    I won't be going to prison; but then, I was in Federal law enforcement and know how the system works on that level... as you clearly do not.
     
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  21. DoctorWho

    DoctorWho Well-Known Member

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    He does not get it.

    I just helped a freind with an expungement.
     
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  22. DoctorWho

    DoctorWho Well-Known Member

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    Exactly !
     
  23. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    all Americans have a right to own guns, if not for people like Trump that knowingly sign unconstitutional laws

    and to correct the title, ex-felons can own firearms, just not the ones that now follow the law... ironic
     
  24. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    Nonsense.
     
  25. JakeJ

    JakeJ Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is growing value in double action "antique" revolvers, whether 5 shot pocket 38s and 32s, to heavier hitters such as the Army 38 (which can handle 38 special) and other black powder 38s (and 45s).
    The Army 38 6 shot revolver became the handgun of most in law enforcement, plus standard military issue.
    What is the plus? In my states, you can carry them where you can not carry any other firearm, even with a permit as they are not considered a firearm.
    Any sign saying firearms prohibited basically do not apply, in nearly all states (not California, NY, NY and MASS of course.)
    A swing out cylinder 6 shot 1896 Colt Army 38 is exactly the same firepower as any modern 38 revolver.
    Again, in most states a felon can own such a gun because it isn't a "firearm." BUT if a cartridge firearm the ammo in it matters.
     

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