Is the universe infinite or is it finite but, due to own own limits, getting to the limits of space is beyond our limits as a species so, to us, it's perceived as infinite. Can anything anywhere ever really be infinite?
ONe might say that "beyond human comprehension" is the same as infinity. Too large to actually conceive the magnititude is at least a practical equivalent, no?
Any particular reason? I was not saying that infinity is a function of conceptualization, merely from an individual standpoint its six of one half dozen of another .
Let's ask the expert: Georg Ferdinand Ludwig Philipp Cantor was a German mathematician. He invented set theory, which has become a fundamental theory in mathematics. Cantor established the importance of one-to-one correspondence between the members of two sets, defined infinite and well-ordered sets, and proved that the real numbers are more numerous than the natural numbers. In fact, Cantor's method of proof of this theorem implies the existence of an "infinity of infinities". I have never proceeded from any Genus supremum of the actual infinite. Quite the contrary, I have rigorously proved that there is absolutely no Genus supremum of the actual infinite. What surpasses all that is finite and transfinite is no Genus; it is the single, completely individual unity in which everything is included, which includes the Absolute, incomprehensible to the human understanding. This is the Actus Purissimus, which by many is called God. The fear of infinity is a form of myopia that destroys the possibility of seeing the actual infinite, even though it in its highest form has created and sustains us, and in its secondary transfinite forms occurs all around us and even inhabits our minds. The actual infinite arises in three contexts: first when it is realized in the most complete form, in a fully independent otherworldly being, in Deo, where I call it the Absolute Infinite or simply Absolute; second when it occurs in the contingent, created world; third when the mind grasps it in abstractoas a mathematical magnitude, number or order type. and so forth. Now run away to keep on living in your myopia. But remember, you can run but you cannot hide.
We don't have the knowledge to know if the Universe is infinite or finite. I suppose you can call this our 'limits' since we can only know what we know today...with or without 'perceptions'. And yes, for example, my honey-do list is infinite...
I guess it's big relative to us, but if there is anything, something 'outside of space' to put dimensions we can comprehend up against the wall, does not mean that they're still not out there. So space is space, but is it big? Is it small? What do we compare space with when getting a size? We're within it, we can't be the judge of that and expect to get it right. Yeah sure, it's big, compared to us, but, who are we, "where are we?" "Where is 'Space'?"
Until we hit the proverbial wall. I'm kidding, I like that though, finite but unbounded. -This makes me ask: What space does space operate in? What's pulling it outside of it? Or... Is the energy of space from within? 'Like a living thing.' and space is pushing itself organically,?
The universe and space as we know it so far is incomprehensibly large. If we delve into what we can observe thus far we must also consider what the Big Bang implies as it is assumed to be an explosion of a sort which is always spherical in nature. When this is assumed our current abilities have allowed us to see at best 1/2 and obviously less. The best we can manage at this point is to look back 13.5 billion years and here we see no light so we use assumptions, computer simulations and various radiations to "Guess"....the James Webb may present us with new revelations but I find it extremely unlikely we will ever know the extent of this Universe, let alone others. It is quite entertaining to speculate however.
Let us assume that we can see the farthest object from us in every direction. Let us also assume that we see it not as a function of time passed but in the present instant. We think the universe was created 13 billion years ago. Matter and space expanded in every direction equally. Was there a single point of origin? I believe cosmology answers yes to this question. Assuming that this spot is X, everything then expanded from that spot in every direction. This is how most of us see the Big Bang because we cannot think of it in other ways. Using this type of reasoning, it is obvious that there must be a furthest point and that on the other side of that furthest point is something, maybe emptiness. That emptiness represents infinity to me. However, the way I think of the universe is not the way cosmologists model the universe. I keep reading what they say and I still cannot fathom it.
This gets debated in the philosophy of astrophysics all the time. We simply do not know. Hubble has shown us endless galaxies hundreds of billions of light years away. But we have no way of knowing if these are still there or now gone. When we look at light in space we are looking at history -- like the waves of the sea or the ripples of water in a pond. We are not actually seeing the object itself simply because it is so far away. All evidence from Hubble so far seems to indicate that space continues infinitely. That's all that we know. Philosophy asks whether it can or cannot. If you reach a conclusion that causes a conflict of paradox, then philosophy rules it out. So far there is no conflict to the notion that space continues infinitely in all directions.
Nobody knows and answers will vary depending on who you ask. Theories are out there regarding the universe as finite and bounded, finite and unbounded, infinite, etc. And each of these theories have pretty credible scientists to support the claims. The most common theory I think is that the universe is finite but unbounded and expanding which basically means that the universe itself (the part you can go to in theory) is finite but is expanding infinitely. What confuses the common person is the question of "ok well if it's expanding then what is it expanding into?" Well it's not expanding into anything, there is "nothing" beyond the universe to "expand into", the universe itself is just expanding. Which makes no sense to most people because we have no real analogies to explain it to the layman. Best analogy I can think of is the common dots on a balloon analogy. Blow up a balloon, put some dots on it and keep blowing it up, the dots get farther apart and the space between them increases. Now of course here on Earth the balloon is expanding into the air around it. Now picture the same thing only there is no "Earth". No air, no people, nothing. The balloon is everything that there "is" and it's blowing itself up. It's not expanding "in to" anything because the balloon itself is "everything", it's just simply getting bigger. Hard to visualize to most people but that's basically what most scientists agree is happening with the Universe.
False. The only credible model has the universe finite but unbounded. It is called the Big Bang Theory. Maybe you've heard of it?
One has to wonder. At the moment of the big bang, the yield of that manifestation was time space, matter, energy. And yet this combo is expanding...but expanding into what? And what are the limits of this "what"? Infinity? No limits?
Of course, it's the one most widely accepted right now and the only one that makes sense with our current understanding of physics that fits within the cosmological principle. But as with anything science related I'm always willing to keep an open mind. I guess saying "credible scientists" was misleading. Some scientists have of course produced theories about different models of the universe but the only widely accepted one by mainstream scientists is the big bang theory.
There is no "what". In the sense of physics what you are asking doesn't actually make sense. It's like asking what does the sky look like when viewing it from your elbow. The Universe itself is "everything that there is" and there is nothing outside of the Universe. Not "nothing" as in an empty void with no stars or matter or anything but "nothing" as in literally nothing at all because "everything" is IN the Universe. The Universe itself is expanding, not "in to" anything, it's just expanding. Hard to visualize I know because humans aren't really equipped to understand "nothing" because there is "something" all around us. Like I said in the earlier post the best way I know how to describe this is to picture the inflating balloon and take away the rest of "everything". Now all you have is the balloon, the balloon itself is everything that there is, and it's blowing itself up and getting bigger. You are located on the balloon surface, you aren't standing away from it watching it blow up because you literally can't because then you would be standing in something that doesn't exist, therefore you wouldn't exist. A lot of people ask this question actually. You basically cannot leave the Universe and go stand outside of it and watch it expand because there's nowhere for you to leave the Universe and go "to" because there is nothing outside of it.
Yes, I have heard that bedtime story before. That there is no what. That in physics, this does not make sense. I say rubbish. I think it is a way to try to make sense while incorporating nonsense to do it. By telling us we cannot or should not ask such a question. That reeks of magic and hocus pocus masquerading as science.
You believe in to be rubbish because you don't understand it which is perfectly normal because human brains are not really hardwired to understand it. When it comes to astrophysics there comes a point where things can no longer be explained in "layman's terms". Layman's terms are used to try to explain something in a way that the average person with little or no education on something can understand, it usually works, but astrophysics is one of those fields where some things just cannot be explained that way because human brains are only hardwired to "visualize" something up to a point. It's not that people are saying you cannot ask that question, it's just that the question literally doesn't make actual sense. It doesn't make sense to you that the question doesn't make sense because you don't understand why it doesn't make sense. If you had a better understanding of physics then you would better understand how that question makes no sense. This is by no means meant to be insulting but think of it this way in regards to the question I asked earlier. "What does the sky look like when viewed from my elbow?" makes no sense to you because you are an adult who understands basic human anatomy and understands that you can't "see" out of your elbow therefore asking what something looks like when viewed from your elbow literally makes no sense. But to a toddler that question might make sense because they may not yet have the reasoning skills and understanding of human anatomy to realize that asking such a thing makes no sense. It's roughly the same in regards to those who have a decent grasp of physics and those who do not. Without having a somewhat decent grasp of the physics involved with space then it becomes difficult to "understand" why what you perceive is a perfectly valid question to ask actually makes zero sense to ask. Trust me I am by no means anything even remotely resembling an expert in astrophysics, I'm a member of a few astrophysics forums who are frequented by real world astrophysicists, professors, astronomers, students, etc. My rudimentary understanding of physics leaves me screwed sometimes because at some point there becomes a time where something cannot be translated in "layman's terms" and you have to actually understand the language of physics being used to explain something.
If something cannot be understood, using logic, rationality, and reason, then it may as well be magic. So, I am not buying that our brains, the ones of average intelligence, cannot understand something, which the language of math reveals. Plus there are physicists who do not buy into the idea of a question that is nonsensical to ask, in this case. Sure there are questions about things which are nonsense questions, like what song does the sky sing today? But this isn't in that category. For if it is true that space time, matter energy came into being in a flash, and continued to expand, with space being one of the qualities of this reality, somethingness or nothingness must be present in order for expansion to happen. For the universe is moving into something other than the universe of space time matter. For you would have what is the universe, and what is not yet the universe. The not yet will become a part of the universe in time. So, if you could travel to the farthest star, on the very edge of this universe, given it is said to be expanding, you would have the universe behind you and stretching out to the left and right, but straight ahead there would be nothing. No time space matter. And the star moves into this as it travels in expansion. But this is nonsense? It is not the way this universe operates in expansion?
From a novice perspective, just thinking about our Universe having an 'edge' or 'outer limit' does not make sense to me. It's all space, and I suppose time, but just thinking about the vacuum of space, how can 'space' have an edge or simply come to an end? If it doesn't have an edge, then it begins to make sense that the Universe is everything. If the Universe was a hunk of rigid plastic then I can imagine it to be finite...with an edge. We're told that the Universe is expanding but this also does not make sense because it's not expanding between me and my computer, or between me and Venus, or between solar systems. Galaxies are not expanding/moving from a single point (like the BB) but instead expanding in every direction. Gotta wonder about the properties of dark space and how they play a role in this expansion or stretching?
