Finite Space?

Discussion in 'Science' started by The Rhetoric of Life, Dec 29, 2017.

  1. Equality

    Equality Banned

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    I feel I must correct you sir with all due respect.

    There is no such thing as a finite universe or a multi-verse, our visual universe has boundaries because of light and the size of objects . So when we say a finite universe, what we really mean is a visual boundary (we can only see so far).

    What we mean by a multi-verse is different dimensions of visual boundaries within an infinite space .
     
  2. Equality

    Equality Banned

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    You need to understand what is meant by the Universe is expanding to understand why there is no edge to our visual universe.
     
  3. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

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    No the universe is finite. It didn't always exist, it was created a few billion years ago and is expanding at the speed of light plus the expansion rate of dark energy.

    What I'm talking about in a multiverse the universe splits into every possible action and reaction. When a choice is made every possible outcome happens in its own universe. And these other divergent states of reality are bleeding into our own universe though effects like superposition where every possibility is taking place until it's observed and collapses into a single value that is unique to our universe. But the other possible values and positions are taking place in their own universe.
     
  4. Equality

    Equality Banned

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    Hmmm, just no. You quite clearly do not understand the science. You may think you understand the science you learnt, but you only understand it to the taught semantics involved. A big bang can not happen without an existing space to happen in etc etc. I suppose you think there is an edge too? or a firmament? I assure you that is very poor and illogical science that does not work. The only firmament that exists, is the firmament of the mind.

    From the firmament of the sky to the firmament of the edge of space, is for the weak minds.....
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
  5. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    You are thinking about this incorrectly. There is no "edge" of the Universe, meaning you can't get to the absolute furthest star and look back and see the Universe and look forward and see "nothing" because that's not what's actually going on. You are sort of asking the equivalent of "If I went to the furthest point on the surface of the Earth and looked forward what would I see?" Well the answer is more Earth.

    This is a common misconception when discussing the Big Bang Theory. Media almost always portrays it incorrectly as a massive explosion with the Universe rapidly expanding outward from a single point. That is not what happened. The Big Bang happened everywhere at the same time. Remember earlier we said that the Universe is "everything" and the Big Bang happened "everywhere" at the same time. So the Universe did not expand outward from a single point but rather "everything" (Universe) is expanding "everywhere" at the same time.

    In order to understand this better a few points need to be made. First there is a difference between the "Observable" Universe and the actual whole Universe. The Observable Universe is the part of it what we here on Earth can see and the "edge" of that is as far as light has been able to travel to us here since the Big Bang. It's roughly 93 billion light years in diameter with a radius of half that. So, here on Earth (or in orbit around here) if you point the most powerful telescope possible in any given direction the absolute furthest you can see anything is roughly 46.5 billion light years away. The light from anything further away than that will never be able to reach your optics because the Universe itself is expanding faster than the speed of light. That that is the "edge" of our Observable Universe.

    Now, if you magically teleported to a star at the absolute edge of our Observable Universe and looked "forward" what you would see is more Universe and if you turned around and looked "back" then we here on Earth would be the "edge" of YOUR Observable Universe. But us here on Earth can look "back" and see more Universe but YOU can't at your new star because no light from anything "behind" us here on Earth will ever reach you at your new star for the same reason why the light "in front" of you at your new star will never reach us here on Earth.

    This keeps going on and on regardless of if you keep teleporting to the edge of your current Observable Universe. The Universe itself looks the same from all perspectives but the portion of if that YOU can see depends on where you are for the aforementioned reasons.

    There is no "edge" of the Universe just like there is no "edge" of the surface of the Earth. If the Earth began to just magically start increasing its size by expanding then you can't just fly from NYC to Sydney and look "forward" and see "nothing" then turn around and see "land". If you are in Sydney and look in 360 degrees then you see Earth all around you, same as if you are thousands of miles away in NYC, and if the Earth just tripled in size overnight it still wouldn't change the fact that no matter where you are on Earth you can still turn 360 degrees and see Earth all around you instead of turning 180 degrees and seeing "nothing".

    Mind you, no the Universe is not a sphere that was just the best way I could think of to explain this. The Universe is actually believed to be flat. Alright so if it's flat and not a sphere then it has an edge. No, it doesn't. The reason is because as we discussed before the Big Bang didn't happen at a single point and expand outward on the flat plane, the Big Bang happened everywhere at the same time. So the reason why you can't teleport to the "edge" of this flat plane and see "Universe" behind you and "nothing" in front of you is because the Big Bang happened at your "furthest star" just like it happened everywhere else.

    "Everything" expanded "Everywhere" at the same time. Your "furthest star" is included in both "everything" AND "everywhere". You can't go anywhere that the Big Bang didn't happen because it happened "everywhere". So no matter where you go in the Universe, if you look 360 degrees in any direction you will see more Universe.

    So can you magically travel faster than the Universe itself is expanding and catch the "edge" of it? Nope, because remember the entire Universe was subjected to the Big Bang at the same time and is also subject to the expansion from the Big Bang. So as long as you are IN the Universe (you have to be, you can't leave it it's "everything") then you are subject to expansion and the effects of the Big Bang. So even the furthest star away from you right now is subjected to what happened with the Big Bang. And the furthest star from that as well, and so on and so forth.

    So even if you magically jumped faster than the Universe itself is expanding and found a star, you're still IN the Universe, and the Big Bang happened THERE just like it happened "everywhere" else in "everything" which is the Universe that you are still in.

    Only way to do what you are asking is to magically get "out" of the Universe and watch it. But you can't do that because there is no "outside" of the Universe because the Universe is "everything". In pseudoscience they have Multiverse stuff but it's not really backed by any actual evidence nor supported by many reputable scientists. So in that case I guess you "could" go to another Universe and maybe watch ours expanding but there is absolutely no scientific evidence supporting such things and multiverse theories are basically nothing more than people fantasizing about things.
     
  6. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    Well the Universe isn't expanding between you and your computer or the Earth and Venus because of gravity. At the local level gravity is stronger than the force of expansion, and by local level I'm talking about our local group of galaxies. Expansion is happening on a larger scale than that. Earths gravity keeps you on Earth, The Sun's gravity keeps the Solar System together, Sagittarius A (the huge black hole at the center of the galaxy) keeps the Milky Way together, and the combined gravity of our galaxy and our neighborhood galaxies keeps all of our galaxies together in the Local Group. The rest of the galaxies are expanding away from us.
     
  7. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

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    So your tactic is to put words in my mouth, a "firmament," and argue against your own words??? Illogical. You loose the debate,
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
  8. Equality

    Equality Banned

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    No, my tactic is to educate you in things you do not understand entirely. Do not worry though, you are one of the many in the world who just do not understand our very own science. Poor semantics is a problem.


    Let me help you and others understand, let us start with the conception of the Universe is expanding. Now many people believe that space itself is expanding liking to an inflating balloon. However this is completely false, the red shift observed is of bodies and not of the actual space itself. Bodies (galaxies) are moving away from us and moving into more space. Space is beyond the last observed body. Light that travels from distant bodies to us also travels in the opposite direction away from us and the body that is emitting/reflecting light.
    Now what most people don't understand, the darkness background of space is not dark, it is transparent (gin clear) . The reason it looks dark is because there is nothing that we can see in that space, this is not to say that there is nothing in that space, it is just relatively too small to see by the perspective of distance visually contracting bodies the further away they are.

    Now understand this, I am the best science thinker this world as ever seen, you could never win in a debate when I only use strict axioms.
     
  9. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Do all galaxies fall into a respective 'local group'? Is it these clusters of mass that create enough gravity to maintain 'local groups'? The 'local groups' relative to the Universe then act more like single entities, maintaining their core structure, yet expanding/stretching relative to other 'local groups'. Dark energy/matter must have some interaction with gravity??
     
  10. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    Not all of them but a lot of them are in clusters. There are some galaxies that are out there by themselves and not part of any cluster. These clusters do have the combined gravity to overcome the expansion of the Universe, however, this is on a small scale in cosmic terms. A cluster only counts as a cluster if the gravity within it is enough to keep all of the mass within it bound together, once the effects of expansion are recognized within the cluster then it's no longer a cluster.

    In the past we basically just kept going up in scale. We had the Solar System, then Milky Way Galaxy, then Local Group, then Virgo Supercluster, then Laniakea Supercluster. In reality Universal Expansion starts to take effect past the Local Group and while the effects of combined gravity are measurable within the Virgo Cluster, Expansion is greater and the galaxies outside of our Local Group are effected more by expansion than gravity, therefore they aren't technically "clusters" anymore. Eventually the rest of the Virgo Cluster and beyond will expand away from us while the Local Group is will stay relatively intact.

    It's not just the collection of mass that keeps the Local Group bound together it's also dark matter. The effects of dark matter have been observed in a nearby galaxy cluster called the Bullet Cluster. Gravity is strong and causes gravitational lensing. The gravity within the Bullet Cluster does this but the lensing effect is stronger than it should be based on the amount of mass in that cluster so scientists concluded that it must be the gravity of dark matter and energy that is causing this additional lensing.

    Basically the Local Group and all other galaxy clusters do not contain enough mass to support the gravity required to keep them bound together. Something else is in there as well which is dark matter. Without dark matter than there would be no galaxy clusters because the expansion of the universe would pull them all apart.
     
  11. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Dark energy'matter; do we assume it is omnipresent? Is dark matter between me and my computer? Within our Solar system, our galaxy, the Universe? Seems odd that 'if' clusters do not contain enough mass to create the required bonding gravity, assuming another property is in play, like dark matter, and if this same dark matter is omnipresent in the Universe, then doesn't this suggest there should be no expansion at all? I wonder if the expansion velocity of a 'local group' entity is the same as rogue galaxies not associated with any 'local groups'? I'll admit most of this conversation is well above my pay grade but especially when talking about gravity; when space objects become so-called 'weightless' not too far from Earth, but at the same time gravitational effects can be so strong that they can collect and bind entire clusters of galaxies!
     
  12. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    It is a mystery. You ask a question about which we have no answer. Sorry.
     
  13. Equality

    Equality Banned

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    The answer is always infinite, you want logical proof?

    At the end of the line is a ''brick'' wall, what thickness is the brick wall?
     
  14. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I like to think of the universe as being currently at this point, finite, yet it is expanding into the infinite. Perhaps before the big bang, there was just the infinite, but the big bang created the finite, which expands into the infinite.

    Seems like the human mind has a problem with something which is infinite, with no beginning nor end. Unlike grasping the finite, the infinite is not so easy and some minds rebel against the idea.
     
  15. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    Yes the gravity of dark matter is what contributes to keeping galaxy clusters together. To break it down basically what's going on is that gravity is used to "weigh" stuff in space. For example Jupiter has a mass of 1.898 × 10^27 kg. It "weighs" that much. We obviously cannot put Jupiter on a giant scale and weigh it but we know that due to the planets gravitational effects on things near it such as it's moons and the probes we send there. We "weigh" galaxies but observing the gravitational effects of the stars within the galaxy roughly the same way we "weigh" planets based on their gravitational effects of their moons or our probes. We also know the strength of gravity vs mass. Basically if something "weighs this much" then the gravitational effect on nearby objects should be "this much". We have observed in other galaxies that they "weigh this much" but it's gravitational effects are greater than they should be. If galaxies contained only the gravity and mass (weight) of the observable matter within them (stars and stuff) then they wouldn't "weigh" as much as we see that they do and wouldn't have the gravitational effects that they do. So scientists have concluded that "something else" is in there contributing to the "weight" (mass) of these galaxies. Dark matter.

    Computer simulations of galaxies using only their observable matter have concluded that they would not "stick together" if there wasn't something else in there.

    Dark matter is just a term used by scientists to basically say "we know it's there but we don't know what it is and we can't see it".

    From what I understand, and I may be wrong, dark matter is present in the Solar System but it's so negligible that it's undetectable. Basically it has no real effect on the Solar System, the Sun controls us around here.

    As to your second point, objects do not become weightless in space. Remember when we said mass determines gravity? While "not too far from Earth" as in orbit, you "weigh" roughly the same as you did on Earth, the Earth's gravity doesn't drop off that quickly, you weigh roughly 90% what you do on the Earths surface. What's happening when you see astronauts floating around is that they are falling towards the Earth all the time but missing the Earth. "Orbit" in layman's terms is tossing something into space at a precise speed to where it will "fall" towards the Earth equal to the rate at which the Earth is moving away from you along it's orbital path. Rocket launches are very precise, you can't just launch one at random and have it stay in orbit, the Earths gravity WILL drag it back down to Earth. You have to launch it at a precise speed to ensure that it falls back to Earth at the same rate that the Earth moves away from it or else it will fall back down to Earth.

    So when you see Astronauts "floating" around in space weightless, they aren't. Everything up there is just in a constant state of freefall back towards the Earth but the Earth is also moving away along it's orbital path at the same rate that they are "falling". So they appear to be floating and weightless. Think of it as skydiving and the Earth itself is also skydiving with you, you never hit the ground because the Earth itself is falling at the same rate you are so you just sort of stay there floating.
     
  16. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Thinking about the BB singularity, for it to exist and contain everything, I question why is there only 'one' singularity? And if it contained 'everything', was it a former universe that contracted itself? If so, then our Universe is finite. If the BB was not a singularity, but instead some other event, like the spawning of 'another' universe, then our Universe might be infinite. For example, if there are black holes that collect everything in it's region, can there be white holes that expel everything? In this case no BB but a constant provider of space, time and matter?

    Dark energy...is it something created in the BB, or something being recycled via a white hole, or is it something that infinitely exists prior to space, matter and time existing? What can be the explanation why dark matter/energy exists in some areas of our Universe but not in the regional galaxy clusters? Maybe it does exist everywhere but is masked by stronger local gravitational effects in galaxy clusters?

    Thank you for the explanation on weightlessness...it makes sense thinking about contact force gravity like standing on the ground versus free-falling with everything else where there is no resistance...hence a sensation of weightlessness. I guess it's the strength of gravity at Earth's surface that does not allow us to jump into the air and remain in the air infinitely. There must be some equilibrium between Earth's gravity on a space-walking astronaut and the velocity of everything to keep 'weightless' objects in place and not fall to Earth?
     
  17. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    These and many other questions are being examined and hypothesized by many capable scientists but as far as your weightless commentary the answer involves time, as anything will degrade in orbit eventually and fall to the surface...astronaut included.
     
  18. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Don't know about stuff falling back to Earth? Is the Moon falling towards Earth? All of the space stuff, as explained in prior posts, is falling towards Earth. However, Earth is constantly moving at the same rate. It's the dynamics of orbit coupled with the strength of gravity at that distance so as long as the math is correct objects should never fall to Earth...
     
  19. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your understanding of this is incorrect. And the moon is actually moving AWAY from Earth due to angular momentum and orbital dynamics. Gravity over time will capture everything at a certain distance barring external forces.
     
  20. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    The answer to the question about the singularity is that we honestly have no idea. "Singularity" isn't so much a "thing" as it is a placeholder word for when the mathematics no longer make sense. Scientists are working very hard to uncover what happened at exactly t=0 (start of the Big Bang) but they haven't figured it out yet. We know what happened during the Planck Era approximately 1 gigabazillion fraction of a second AFTER the Big Bang (I made that term up 10^-43), but we don't know what caused it all to start.

    There are some theories about white holes, I honestly don't know much about that theory and haven't looked very much into it.

    Dark energy does exist everywhere the effects of it are just minimal in some places such as in our own Solar System. Dark Energy is what is driving the accelerated expansion of the Universe but in some cases the collective gravity of matter and dark matter is enough to overcome the rate of expansion such as in galaxy clusters.

    There is an equilibrium to where stuff in space will orbit the Earth by falling with the Earth around it's orbital path. The reason why you can't just jump in the air and stay there is because believe it or not you (and everything else on the Earth) is actually moving along the Earths orbital path at the same speed as the Earth is because you are on the Earth travelling with it.

    Think about it like being on an airplane. On a commercial airline if you get up out of your seat and move into the isle you aren't slammed into the back of the aircraft. You can jump around and everything just fine and you don't move. The reason is because the airplane is flying at 600kts through the air and you are flying at 600kts as well while inside the airplane. This is also why airplanes can actually fly around the Earth and don't get "stuck" up there with the Earth spinning beneath them when they leave the surface. The Earth isn't just the ground it's everything within the Earths atmosphere including the sky. So even airplanes are travelling WITH the Earth along it's orbital path.

    Have you ever heard of the old saying about jumping at the last second in an elevator that is freefalling and it will save you? That's not true, the reason is because if the elevator cable snaps and it's falling with you inside then you are falling at the same speed as the elevator. So if you jump at the last second before impact then you are still going to slam into the bottom of the elevator at nearly the exact same speed as it was falling.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2018
  21. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    It depends on where you are in orbit. In a perfect vacuum then no you would never fall back to Earth as long as you are travelling at the same speed as the Earth is around it's orbital path. The reason stuff falls back to Earth in orbit is because a lot of stuff up there is in low Earth orbit which isn't really very far away.

    Picture the ISS for example. They have to routinely fire the jets on that thing to keep it from falling back to Earth. The reason is because of it's relatively close proximity to the Earth. Even in space at that low altitude the Earth's upper atmosphere has a tiny effect on it. The upper atmosphere is slowing down the ISS ever so slightly due to a very tiny amount of drag. So over the course of time the ISS slows down and starts falling back towards the Earth requiring some thrust to speed it back up again.

    Think of it like a tether ball on a playground. When you smack the ball really hard it spins around the poll and stays spinning around the poll due to centripetal force. Once it starts to slow down it starts getting closer to the poll until it eventually hits the poll. Stuff in orbit is the same way only it's gravity and not a string that's providing that centripetal force. If you could keep your tether ball going at the same speed as when you just smacked it then it would forever swing around the poll at that altitude. So as long as the stuff in space maintains that perfect velocity then it will forever stay up there swinging around the Earth. Just don't get too close to something that can act on it and slow it down.
     
  22. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Stuff within Earth's atmosphere I agree but stuff in the vacuum of space maybe in billions of years. About the Moon, at least it's not falling towards Earth...I did read about tidal bulges and gravity effects caused by the Moon which push the Moon further from Earth...thanks...
     
  23. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    I know one theory is the known Universe represents everything, starting from the singularity expanding to what we know today. But this is not intuitive to believe something can come from nothing? It's also not intuitive to believe all of the space, time and matter of the Universe was once in a spec the size of an atom? And I'm aware that it is this intuitiveness that prevents me from thinking differently but I keep trying to adjust it which is obvious by my novice comments. Maybe there's a phenomena with black holes in which they reverse becoming white holes giving creation to the Universe?

    Regarding dark matter/energy, it's amazing that at such large distances, and with infantesimally small gravity effects, that it can effect billions of galaxies yet not interfere within the galaxy clusters themselves. Intuitively it seems like another property other than what we know as gravity is in force.

    Thank goodness for gravity to prevent everything from flying off Earth...thanks for your input...
     
  24. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Why didn't they orbit the ISS at a higher altitude to avoid orbital adjustments?

    And the 500,000 pieces of space junk, or the 20K+ pieces of relevant size, most of which don't have any propulsion to adjust their orbit, are all going to crash back to Earth? I know most will burn up in our atmosphere but with those quantities it seems like we'd see glowing objects in the sky all the time...
     
  25. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    High orbit is difficult and expensive to achieve, the cost and weight are prohibitive. Do you think you would see a flare lit in the state next to you in the middle of the day? Or even at night on a foggy evening?
     

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