Finland says debate on NATO membership 'will change' after Russian invasion

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by Durandal, Feb 25, 2022.

  1. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

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    3 hr 7 min ago
    Pro-NATO group of opposition leaders from Finland and Sweden in DC

    From CNN's Jennifer Hansler

    A pro-NATO group of opposition leaders from Finland and Sweden was in Washington, DC, this week for meetings with the Biden administration and the Hill, sources familiar with the meetings told CNN.

    While in the US capital, the small delegation led by Finland’s Petteri Orpo and Sweden’s Ulf Kristersson met with Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs Karen Donfried, Amanda Sloat of the National Security Council, a number of staff on Capitol Hill and think tanks including the Atlantic Council and the German Marshall Fund.

    Henri Vanhanen, foreign policy adviser to Finland’s center-right party, said they wanted to give the message that Finland and Sweden are contributors to security, they bring something to the table and won’t be a burden by joining NATO as they already have very strong national defense. Vanhanen said this message was well received.

    In the joint meetings at State and the NSC, there was common understanding that “security guarantees” are only given to NATO members and that it is up to Sweden and Finland to decide about joining, said a Swedish parliamentary official and Vanhanen, the latter of which noted they are not in a position to negotiate with the US government. However, there was discussion about how to improve overall safety and security, particularly in the interim period between application and accession. This Swedish official familiar said discussion included cyber issues and bigger exercises in the Baltics.

    Both nations are aiming to apply by the June NATO summit in Madrid at the latest, the opposition hopes.

    Vanhanen said it is a “pragmatic” issue for Finland as it shares a border with Russia and has been at war with them, and said joining the alliance is a question of “when” not “if.”

    Officials from Sweden and Finland said there is no doubt that the US Senate would vote to approve their countries’ accessions to NATO. The Senate must approve Sweden and Finland joining NATO by at least a two-thirds vote. ​

    Live updates: https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-putin-news-04-21-22/index.html
     
  2. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    Applications for NATO membership that lead to more members in NATO are the only sanctions and the only form of isolation against Russia for its land grab in Ukraine that will sting long term. Putin was worried about one more member, on its doorstep. Let's get those applications processed, and those votes scheduled!
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2022
  3. Space_Time

    Space_Time Well-Known Member

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    Will we see a revival of the Cold War term 'Finlandization':
     
  4. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Finland joining NATO might make sense for Finland. They have a massive welfare state and they can slough off their own defense spending and pass that on to the US, which will have a larger security umbrella to cover. I'm not sure what the US gets out of it.
     
  5. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    Well, that's what happens when an aggressive power launches a war of aggression and seeks to change international boundaries, alliances quickly spring up against them.

    As Finland considers NATO membership, citizens mobilize for an invasion by Russia.
     
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  6. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    Do you know anything about current & proposed defence spending in Finland? I'm betting not. But hey, why waste time looking up facts when you can just say stuff about them soshulist Europeans.

    Finland offers a well armed, well trained & highly motivated military with a huge reserve relative to size. It also offers very strategic territory. Finland will make a great NATO member.
     
  7. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    How does that actually benefit the US?
     
  8. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

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    Mutual defense is always beneficial.
     
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  9. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    No it's not. In fact, that is not even close to being true. Otherwise why don't we have China and Russia and India join NATO? How about Syria and Iran?

    So again, how would Finland joining NATO benefit the US security position?
     
  10. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

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    NATO doesn't have authoritarian regimes that are hostile to current and prospective NATO members for reasons that seem rather obvious to me.

    I'm not sure what you mean to ask with this question about Finland joining, however. The more members NATO has, the stronger the alliance. And Finland would be a strong member in its own right.
     
  11. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It seems you do not understand how NATO works. US doesn't pay for other countries defense, and nor does any other member nation.

    What does the US get? Military co-operation and a paying customer, although Finland already buys quite a bit from the US, including 60 Hornets and 60 F35s.
     
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  12. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    You've forgotten about Turkey already? NATO doesn't have a method to kick out authoritarian regimes, so we'll ally with dictators apparently.
     
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  13. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Weird, I didn't say anything paying for another country's defense bills. I'm just hesitant to set up the next WWI only with a more advanced numeral.
     
  14. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Its not weird, because you did say Finland will pass their spending to the US.
     
  15. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Lol, they're not going to bill us! But by joining NATO they are getting the protection of the US and friends without having to increase defense spending. The defense of their country is passed on to us.

    I'm just wondering what the American people are getting out of promising to protect more and more of the globe. Seems like a raw deal.
     
  16. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That's the idea. We defend them, and they defend us. All sides get the same deal out of it.
     
  17. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    "they defend us"

    snicker, OK. Sounds perfectly fair.
     
  18. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Right. Whether or not you want to accept that fact is irrelevant, but that's the idea.

    US went to war in Afghanistan, and NATO nations (including Finland which was not even a member) went to help the US and it reduced the cost on us. NATO also helped US in Iraq, Libya. On the other hand, US has never deployed to help another member (there has been no need). So, maybe that answers your repeated "what's in it for us".
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2022
  19. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Weird that you mention the Libya example. Britain and France decided to war against Libya and pulled us in under the auspices of a NATO operation. Did Libya attack a NATO country? Were we defending NATO territory? No, we overthrew a country for murky reasons that had nothing to do with the security of any NATO country because of...NATO. So if Turkey gets involved in yet another military attack against the Kurds and they hit back against Turkey, would you be willing to go to war against the Kurds because of an article 5 from Turkey?

    And the US has been constantly deployed (since the end of WWII) with bases in multiple NATO and other countries assuring that we're the tripwire.
     
  20. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    A NATO nation has never been attacked, because........of NATO. That's the idea. I only gave some examples where NATO has helped the US after you asked "what's in it for us". Of course Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria and Libya didn't attack a member. We chose to go to war against them, and as opposed to the US carrying 100% of the cost, NATO pitched in.

    Yes, and the "and other countries" should explain the fact that its what the US wants to do, and NATO simply makes it more convenient for us Germany paid US to house US troops in Germany, so that actually saved us money. Without NATO US would spend even more on military. Why? Because we insist on having a military presence / projecting military power in every corner of the planet. Its what we do, and we don't do it as a favor to others, or being a tripwire (as you seem to think). Heck, we used to have some 300 000 troops in NATO nations, and now its down to a fraction of that.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2022
  21. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    I see you edited my reply to remove my Turkey example. I assume because Turkey is problematic. This sort of editing is becoming more and more common I've noticed.
     
  22. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It didn't' interest me. I discuss things which interest me. Sorry if it hurt your feelings.

    Ok, since you are butthurt I will answer: Kurds is not a country, and hence them harassing Turkey will not require NATO response.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2022
  23. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure you understand article 5 since Al-Qaeda wasn't a country either.

    In any case since you intend to make sure to ignore all points and facts that you don't like because they don't "interest" you, it clarifies how seriously to take any of your comments.
     
  24. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I understand it just fine.

    Cry me a river

    [​IMG]
     
  25. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    You're right! Ignoring what doesn't interest me works like a charm!
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2022

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