For the owners of confederate flags and symbols.

Discussion in 'Race Relations' started by btthegreat, Sep 2, 2019.

  1. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    @FatBack . I am an Oregonian. I periodically will see confederate flags or emblems, but not a lot. We have no real confederate cemeteries or much of the baggage of civil war divisions or the war. A lot more blacks came here to escape slavery than were brought here as slaves. We banned slavery in our constitution via statewide referendum in 1857 ( white men did the voting of course, and it did not so much represent a liberal Quaker like view of slavery as it did a desire to keep slavery AND blacks out of the state)
    "In 1857, the year of Mary Jane’s wedding, the new Oregon Constitution came to a vote. Oregonians had the opportunity to voice their opinion on two pressing questions: Should Oregon have slavery, and should free blacks be permitted in Oregon. Statewide, 2645 people voted to legalize slavery, and 7727 voted to ban it. While Oregon was decidedly anti-slavery, the opposition to free blacks was even stronger. 8640 voted to exclude free blacks; only 1081 voted to allow them." http://usslave.blogspot.com/2013/08/slavery-in-oregon-willamette-valley.html. As a result we have little historical context in Oregon, and not a hell of a lot of blacks outside Portland and Salem. My point is that I have no personal understanding of the cultural divisions that the symbol represents. Can't ask many blacks, or many whites directly and emotionally impacted by the debate in that southern culture, but I suspect this is a very layered, complicated and nuanced symbol as it is a layered complicated and nuance culture, rather than simplistic one.

    For the moment I will assume you are a blank slate, and there is no posting history for me to check or verify squat. . Here is the deal. I promise to believe what you write if you promise to be honest in your assessment on four questions. This is not a thread for judgment so much as it is about me learning.
    1 Where were you raised State town rural etc. ( tells me something about your cultural background)
    2. Why do you post or show either the flag or its likeness?
    3. what does it symbolize to you.
    4. Of the others in your acquaintance who also have a confederate flag/ bumper sticker/ poster etc, what percentage do you think may be expressing a stance on race, race related issues, white pride, or white nationalism etc 5%, 20% , 56%, 75%, in other words how many of them fit the stereotype many of the rest of us may be imposing on them when we see that symbol ?
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2019
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  2. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There are only a couple reasons to own or brandish a confederate flag.
    (1) You are showing pride in what that aspect of the Civil War stood for.
    (2) You want to use the symbol to create the negative reaction you know it entails.
    (3) You really like the Dukes of Hazzard.

    If there are more reasons....please tell me.
     
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  3. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    I am really much more interested in what people who were raised in the South have to say than the conjecture of those who have not, because that is the cultural tradition and heritage that presupposes virtues to a legacy including that confederate flag. My working theory is that a symbol with over a hundred years of fairly dramatic change under its belt, over a large geographic area and several intersecting subcultures is likely to see a more complex and ambiguous meaning than words like 'segregation' 'slavery;or 'states rights', or 'anti yankee' can impart.

    I believe our national flag certainly includes a lot more ambiguity and maybe a more anti authoritarian interpretation in a generation that saw the Civil rights movement, some key assassinations, the Vietnam War, and Watergate, than a preceding one that saw a Great Depression, Pearl Harbor, World War 2, , a Cold War and McCarthyism.

    But I know that a Brit, a Pole and a Pakistini are better off asking a bunch of Americans what our flag now means to us, and how we feel, than deciding to figure it out without us.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2019
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  4. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    4. You are just proud of being a Dixie.

    With your logic, there are only three reasons to own a Star Spangled Banner;
    1. You support foreign invasions, war and the nukings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
    2. You hate Southerners and want to provoke them.
    3. You support Jim Crowe and wish segregation could come back.
     
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  5. Imnotreallyhere

    Imnotreallyhere Well-Known Member Donor

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    Where do you get your aura of moral superiority that you think you're worthy to judge anyone else's views on race? Are you unaware of Oregon's racist history? If you are, Google 'Oregon racist history'. It may enlighten and humble you a bit on this subject.
     
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  6. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    :banana:
     
  7. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    All flags demonstrate allegiance to something. Which means less or nil allegiance to other things.

    If sufficiently inclined, you can demonise all flags which don't support things you like. Rainbow flags are hateful because they 'exclude' straight people. One nation's flag is hateful because it 'excludes' all other nations. Etc etc. Have fun :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2019
  8. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    I am not the state of Oregon. I am not some people in the state of Oregon. I am not a Grand Wizard who may have lived in the state of Oregon in 1955. I am more than morally worthy, and I get to judge a hell of a lot of peoples views on race, yours included. You can do some googling of your own on Christianity's racist history. I know it won't humble you, but then it shouldn't because we both know that you are not Christianity any more than I am Oregon. This little hatchet job tells me more than enough to compare. Care to speak to the OP or go find a thread on a topic where you won't disrespect the scope of the thread and derail with veiled Ad homs?
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2019
  9. ArchStanton

    ArchStanton Banned

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  10. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    You are factually accurate but it becomes a factoid in this case. Santa Claus is not St Nicholas either but one is retired and one is active and none of us is terribly particular what we call who, since the Night Before Christmas came out. The symbol overpowers the significance.
     
  11. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    Your first assertion is iffy at best. Flags may ask for allegiance but they do not show it exists. the taking of an oaths demonstrate a mild allegiance. You can honor a flag, appreciate it, or respect what symbolizes, without any demonstrative allegiance or concrete form of loyalty at all. Your second assertion is downright ridiculous. Alligience does not come in unrefillable and premeasured gallon jugs.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2019
  12. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    Since mine is in the privacy of my home, I cant answer much of the OP.
    It's part of my heritage and no amount of PC crap will cause me to abandon it.
     
  13. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    Lets try a few anyway.
    1. Why do you have it
    2. What part of your heritage does it symbolize.
    3. Do you personally know others who own or honor it, for whom the racial connotations others see in it, represent part of their attraction. The white nationalist/ racists who may also see it as a symbol.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2019
  14. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    1. A friend gave it to me and I am 5 th generation Floridian
    2. see #1 and my Confederate anscestors.
    3. Yes and no, I know no 'white nationalist or racist".
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2019
  15. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    So for you it does not represent much politically or socially. Not this states rights stuff, this secessionism/ anti federalism etc. It represents your grandparents, or great uncles and their parents etc.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2019
  16. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    More like Southern Heritage and history.
     
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  17. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    Its a recognition of a southern cultural identity more than a statement of support for a right of secession or the government of the confederacy.
     
  18. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    I suppose that is fairly accurate, in my case. So what of it?
    See what happened when States attempted to secede? The war between the states, ensued. (Or 'war of Northern aggression' depending on who tells it)
     
  19. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    I dont have forever @btthegreat
    Can we skip the next twenty questions and cut to your point?
     
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  20. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    remember I am trying to learn from you and other southerners. So far in this and a duplicate thread in a similar site ( I posted the exact same OP). About two out of 13 southerners who self identified, were unhappy with that flag. One described himself as 'saddened by the ignorance' another was just outraged. Another was not an owner, but the son of one, but knew others who were. He was pretty indifferent about the whole flag thing but he knew a couple for whom it was a racial statement.
    One still has not answered my questions.

    The rest were southerners who claimed to own and support that confederate flag. None said they were in any way racialists, white nationalists or segregationists. Three admitted they knew a small minority who were racists '******bags' in the vernacular of one , but said that most people who they knew,. saw the flag in almost exactly the same terms you do. For them it was about heritage, culture and a vague sort of southern pride. Several also mentioned that they got their flag handed down from fathers or grandfathers which gave it special significance One got his from a great friend in WW2 who died. I did not ask anybody about their race.

    I have no idea even a single black person answered my question about what that flag meant to him or his family. That is a huge loss to this conversation! I wish my pool of respondants was larger.
    .
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2019
  21. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    See below. My point was exactly as I described in the op. I wanted to learn from people who owned one, or from southerners to see what they saw in that flag. It was more of a survey for me to learn and listen, than for me to make any larger point. I really don't have a point per se but the conclusions from two different political forums is below. . I thank you for your time.
     
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  22. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    So there you have it, very few have the flag as some racially provocative symbol. Asides from money and time, I considered joining "Sons of Confederate Veterans".

    If you want to see what some Southerners think of the flag, do a bit of research on them.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2019
  23. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    It is just a piece of cloth that is only as hateful as you wish to perceive it. Projecting your own insecurities about the symbol on wearers and pathologising them based on your own incapability to interpret and understand their feelings is just dumbtarded. As far as personal preferences and perceptions go, any symbol can be turned into a hate symbol.Any.

    If you are born and bred in "Dixie" and have ancestral ties to the region that stretch generations, the flag may be a symbol of something as simple and innocent as "home". Afterall, Southerners are very different from Northerners and from the folks on the coasts. Most people are proud of their heritage and often do they express this pride though symbols.

    the North invaded the South, not to free the slaves, but to stop the Southern plans of secession. In this regard thr Confederate Flag was the symbol of men defending their homeland against an invading army. For most men, "defending the flag" was not as much about "defending the institution" as it was about defending their mothers, sisters, wives and daughters and protecting their family and themselves from starvation, homelessness, rape and pilage. It is preposterous to say that every man fighting for "Dixie" also fought for slavery - What else were they supposed to do? "Hi, Mr. Union Soldier, you are free to kill me. thank you so much"?
     
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  24. Bush Lawyer

    Bush Lawyer Well-Known Member

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    Forgive an Aussie intruding here.

    I reckon some of the most stirring music came out of the South in that terrible War. Easy for me to say, but I would never take umbrage at Confederate stuff being honoured. No point ignoring history.

    One of the quirks of life......my Son in Law is a Kiwi, whose Dad was a resident of Mobile Alabama. No surprise he was (now deceased) always a proud Dixie bloke.
     
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  25. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    I should but I wont. Who knows....
     

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