Former Israeli PM Olmert gets 6 years in prison for corruption

Thats exactly our point. Jews lived in Europe, but it doesn't make them european, they are largely of middle eastern descent anyway. People have tried to make this into a european vs. middle eastern thing when its not about that at all.

 

You can't be an apartheid state and have an arab president and have arabs with full voting rights. Sorry.

 

The jewish presence in Palestine is undeniable- but it's hardly been continuous, has it.

 

You are leaving out sabras, many of whom are of mizrahi descent. Some of the stats are flawed too as I showed. Plus sefaradic and ashkenazi jews lived in europe, but, well, we have been over this time and time again.

 

Again, like I said, very few Sephardic Jews settled in Palestine after their exile from Spain. I have backed up my claims, while all you have is personal anecdotes about "many" and "a lot." You must substantiate your claims.

How is it not "entirely true?"

A topic that deserves another thread.

47 is nevertheless a substantial number, and the number simply reinforces my original premise.

I said (and proved) that the Sephardic Jews were pretty much Arabized and thus easily assimilated into Arab countries. I said no such thing about the Western Jews who began to immigrate Palestine in the early 20th century.

"Some" doesn't tell me anything. Where is the evidence? All you have to do is provide the numbers.

 

That would never hold up in America. Here the judges take bribes just like everybody else.

 

It certainly makes them culturally and intellectually European. The Zionists never intended to be ruled by the Arabs (who were indigenous to Palestine), and the Arabs did not want tens of thousands of immigrants from Europe to settle on heir land.

It has always been a European vs Arab thing.

 

Some arabs lived in palestine long enough to be considered 'indigenous', but other palestinian arabs came from other countries like Egypt, Sudan (there are black palestinian arabs afterall). And of course the 'arabs' themselves are from arabia, but there isn't any point in going back that far. There are non arab groups of palestine like the samaritans, greeks, turks, armenians, circassians, and of course jews that never left. These groups certainly knew arabic and were in some cases partially culturally arabized but they were never 'arabs'. The samaritans and circassians are a perfect example of people who were arabized but didn't have arabian blood and still kept their own distinct customs despite speaking arabic. I argue this is the case for jews as well (except the ones from the arabian peninsula who were either converts to judaism or heavily mixed, like in some cases the yemenite jews). Not all yemenite jews have extensive arabian admixture however. Some yemenite jews look indistinguishable from european jews, so I would argue that some have little to know arabian admixture, but thats off topic.

The land was Ottoman turkish at this time anyway, at least before it came under british rule. It hadn't been ruled by the arabs for more than 500 years, and it was viewed as part of greater syria by both arabs and turks.

Anyway, jews and arabs have had times of peace when living together, but also times of intolerance and hardship, I can cite examples centuries prior to Israel. Just like there has been a long feud between persians and arabs, there has been the same historical strife between hebrews and arabs.

The european jews aren't really a monolothic group, racially, or culturally. Some are more of middle eastern stock than others. In Germany Hitler couldn't tell the difference between germans and jews because jews intermarried for centuries with native germans. But he was shocked at the appearance of 'eastern jews' from poland and lithuania for their stereotypical 'hebrew' features, dark skin and hair, and their language and customs were viewed by europeans as completely alien. German Jews also didn't know hebrew or yiddish in many cases and were completely assimilated into europe, linguistically, racially, and culturally and they actually looked down at yiddish speaking 'eastern' jews as primitive and uncultured.

Sefaradim aren't really monolithic at least culturally either. Some are essentially european and consider themselves 'spaniards', others retained jewish customs and remained separate. In North Africa, they lived in Jewish ghettos, spoke judeo-darija, hebrew, and french and were never viewed as arabs by their neighbors because of language, customs, and religion. In Turkey they never really became 'turks' but remained ladino speakers and rarely married non-jews.

I wouldn't say its completely an either or situation. Sometimes it may have been a european vs. middle eastern thing, but other times its a jewish/hebrew vs. arab thing. Its not clear cut and is complicated.

 

Nothing will chnage this guy's mind.

I already told him that the Jews who came back from Europe in 1948 have since been tested genetically, especially their priests who all came from Aaron, i.e.; Exodus.
Those tests show these priests all had the same father back in 1362 BC.

He doesn't care.
For him, they are the Romans, pretending they are the Jews.

 

Well in Israel its common knowledge, but here are some facts for you.

The Jews of Palestine were not exclusively of Iberian origins, and included substantial Yiddish speaking communities who had established themselves in Palestine centuries earlier.

Towards the end of the Ottoman era in Palestine, native Jewish communities lived primarily in the four 'holy cities' of Safed, Tiberias, Hebron and Jerusalem.[3] The Jewish population consisted of Ashkenazim (Judeo-German speakers) and Sephardim, the latter of which could be further subdivided as Sephardim proper (Judeo-Spanish speakers) and Moghrabim (Arabic speakers). The majority of Jews in the four holy cities, with the exception of Jerusalem, were Arabic and Judaeo-Spanish speakers.[3] The dominant language among Jews in Jerusalem was Yiddish, due to the large migration of pious Ashkenazi Jews from Russia and Eastern Europe. Still, in 1882, there were 7,620 Sephardim in Jerusalem, of whom 1,290 were Moghrabim, from the Maghreb or North Africa. Natives of the city, they were Turkish subjects, and fluent in Arabic.[3] Arabic also served as the lingua franca between the Sephradim/Moghrabim and Ashkenazim and their non-Jewish Arab counterparts in mixed cities like Safed and Hebron

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Jews#Overview

Ashkenazi Jews were also 'arabized' and lived in palestine for centuries. Moroccan Jews also came to palestine/eretz yisrael centuries earlier. Arabic was the lingua franca between ashkenazim and sefaradim from morocco and sefaradim from greece and other ladino speaking jewish areas.

Also,

European Jews were commonly considered an "Oriental" people in many of their host countries, usually as reference to their ancestral origins in the Middle East. A prominent example of this is Immanuel Kant, an (18th-century Prussian philosopher) who referred to European Jews as "Palestinians living among us."[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palest...pean_Jews_as_.22Palestinians.22_prior_to_1948

So really its not simply a 'european vs. arab' thing because ashkenazi jews were also culturally arabized along with some sefaradim. Although both groups were still hebrew and had knowledge of hebrew besides arabic and other languages.

 

Yep.
The Romans conquered the Jews and then through them out of Israel.

The same "Romans" in 1948, agreed to send the Jews back, but to lands they purchased from Arabs with Titles, who lived there under the Ottoman Empire.

The HAMAS people forget that Ottoman lost the Battle of Armageddon in 1919, and agreed to give up title to the land in Israel/Palestinia to the British.

 

What is interesting about 1948 is that 601,000 Jews populated Israel, in prophecy-fulfilled, as counted out in Numbers.

 

Yisrael Yeshayahu Sharabi (Hebrew: ישראל ישעיהו שרעבי‎, 20 April 1908 – 20 June 1979) was a Yemen-born Israeli politician, minister and the fifth Speaker of the Knesset.

Born in Sa'dah, Yemen, Yeshayahu was a member of the Dor Daim movement, before making aliyah in 1929. He became head of the Yemenite Immigrant and Eastern Jewry Department of the Histadrut in 1934, a position he retained until 1948 when he started organizing the immigration of Yemenite Jews, including Operation Magic Carpet.

He worked as a Hitler impersonator from 1939 to 1945, earning himself the affectionate title 'Jewish Hitler'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yisrael_Yeshayahu


Yosef Qafih (Hebrew: יוסף קאפח‎), widely known as Rabbi Qafih (27 November 1917 – 21 July 2000), was a Yemenite-Israeli one of the foremost leaders of the Yemenite Jewish community, first in Yemen and later in Israel. He was the grandson of Rabbi Yiḥyah Qafiḥ, also a prominent Yemenite leader and founder of the Dor Deah (anti-Kabbalah) movement in Yemen. He is principally known for his editions and translations of the works of Maimonides and other early rabbinic authorities, primarily his restoration of the Mishneh Torah from old manuscripts.[1]


Qafih was born in (27 November 1917) in Sana’a in Yemen .[2] His father was Rabbi David Qafiḥ. He died when his son was one year old. At the age of five Rabbi Yosef lost his mother, and was raised by and learned Torah with his grandfather Rabbi Yiḥyah Qafiḥ. When Yosef was 14 his grandfather died and he inherited his position as rabbinic authority and teacher of the Sana’a community. In his early years he worked as a silversmith.

In 1943 he immigrated to Palestine, studied at the Merkaz HaRav yeshiva and qualified as a dayan at the Harry Fischel Institute. In 1950 he was appointed as a dayan in the Jerusalem district court, and later was appointed as a dayan at the Supreme Rabbinical Court. He was a member of the Chief Rabbinate Council of Israel, and presided over the Yemenite community in Jerusalem, as well as spreading Rabbi Tzvi Yehuda Kook's teachings among the Israeli Sephardi populace.[citation needed] He died on 21 July 2000 at the age of 82.

 

Here is another reference to Jews from arab lands coming to eretz yisrael/palestine prior to establishment of the modern state.

Emigration from Yemen to Palestine began in 1881 and continued almost without interruption until 1914. It was during this time that about 10% of the Yemenite Jews left. Due to the changes in the Ottoman Empire citizens could move more freely and in 1869 travel was improved with the opening of the Suez Canal, which reduced the travel time from Yemen to Palestine. Certain Yemenite Jews interpreted these changes and the new developments in the "Holy Land" as heavenly signs that the time of redemption was near. By settling in Palestine they would play a part in what they believed could precipitate the anticipated messianic era.

From 1881 to 1882 a few hundred Jews left Sanaa and several nearby settlements. This wave was followed by other Jews from central Yemen who continued to move into Palestine until 1914. The majority of these groups moved into Jerusalem and Jaffa. Before World War I there was another wave that began in 1906 and continued until 1914. Hundreds of Yemenite Jews made their way to Palestine and chose to settle in the agricultural settlements. It was after these movements that the World Zionist Organization sent Shmuel Yavne'eli to Yemen to encourage Jews to emigrate to Palestine. Yavne'eli reached Yemen at the beginning of 1911 and returned to Palestine in April 1912. Due to Yavne'eli's efforts about 1,000 Jews left central and southern Yemen with several hundred more arriving before 1914.[48]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemenite_Jews#First_wave_of_emigration:_1881_to_1914

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yosef_Qafih

 

But how many Ashkenazi Jews lived in Palestine at that time? Obviously not many, because as I proved, Jews were generally restricted from immigrating to Palestine, and only thus only a few settlements were built in the country. This is a fact you keep evading.

Even your own link says that they were minority among the the other, Arabic-speaking Jews:

Once again, I am only interested in the Ashkenazi Jews who began immigrating to Palestine between 1900-1948. The problems started when tens of thousands of these European Jews started settling in Palestine.

What Europeans considered Jews to be is irrelevant. The Arabs did not see them as "Palestinians," but Europeans.

 

Except that Jews owned only 6% of the land by 1948.

 

no no, my point was that some ashkenazi jews were arabized, not only in palestine but in egypt and other north african countries. I'm not saying they formed the majority of ashkenazi jewry, far from it. Most of ashkenazi jewry was in europe at that time and was later eliminated by the holocaust.

I still don't understand why anti-zionists single out european ashkenazi jewish refugees that immigrated to palestine centuries after the middle eastern arabic speaking ashkenazim , it was a result of anti-semitism in europe and then later the holocaust, which was supported by the mufti. What is this obsession anti-zionists have with this one small particular (and outdated) group in Israel? Yiddish is practically dead in Israel and its only spoken ironically by anti-zionist ashkenazi (mainly hassidic jews) in the ultra-orthodox mea shearim. The remaining ashkenazi jews absorbed into the overwhelming sefaradic israeli society, everyone speaks sefaradi hebrew today and eats israeli food which is identical to arabic food in almost every way. Falafel, hummus, tabouli, etc. This is the exact opposite of a european 'colony'.

Its entirely relevant because the anti-zionist premise has always been that zionism is a racist european colonialist movement. How can this be true if these jews we are talking about were actually of middle eastern descent themselves? The Arabs didn't see them as europeans, but as jews, jews in large numbers, and jews in control, or rather out of control, from the arab-nationalist perspective. This has never before happened in arab history. Jews were always a minority in arab countries, so yes, the thought of jewish state (in historically jewish land) was unheard of and rejected by the majority. But they brought some of this on themselves with their support of nazism and hitler. It only further increased jewish refugee immigration.

Also, as I proved, there were substantial numbers of Jews from Yemen alone, 10 % of yemenite jews during the first major aliyah, before Israel was established. If you combine that percentage with jewish populations of other middle eastern and north african countries, you are going to have signficant amount of pre-1948 mizrahi immigration to palestine. Its not disputed that most immigration took place after 48 in response to pogroms, but there was still significant immigration prior to 48, even from yemen alone. Zionism was not a strictly ashkenazi or sefaradi phenomenon, but a jewish one. That is why most israeli jews today are zionist. And we both know I don't need a poll for that, that fact is obvious. But if you insist, I will try to find one if you ask.

 

Because never before had hundreds of thousands of an alien community come to Palestine with the intent of changing its demographic, political, and cultural landscape. They settled the land and formed communities, disregarding what the indigenous Arabs may have thought of their actions. Of course, to them, Palestine was a "land with no people, for a people with no land."

The wanted the land, and they took it. And they are still stealing and settling on it.

I don't subscribe to that viewpoint.

Not Jews, but Zionists, who intended to take the land and form a Jewish state. And Zionism did not originate in the Arab world, but in Europe.

How many non-Ashkenazi Jews immigrated to Palestine between 1900-1948?

 

Im not arguing about decents......, I just dont think they are important to our point in time.

 

quote:

"The anti-zionist premise has always been that zionism is a racist european colonialist movement.
How can this be true if these jews we are talking about were actually of middle eastern descent themselves? "

 

A little more than 50% the number of Muslims:

 

Good point, I was actually going to add up the numbers of non-ashkenazi jews which are substantial, but your post is even better.

- - - Updated - - -

Exactly. Ashkenazim are of middle eastern descent. And they weren't any more 'alien' to palestine than sefaradic jews. Anti-zionist terrorist supporters like rachel corrie were racist and ignorant, she said ashkenazi are white, when some are almost black skinned, sometimes darker than sefaradic jews and mizrahi jews. Typical ignorant westerner who knows nothing about genetics or history.

 

Was that the young American citizen who was brutally murdered by a neoZionist with a bulldozer ?

Just for laughs, give us the Occupiers version.

 

She wasn't murdered. She was a terrorist supporting liar who was run over by a bulldozer as she was not in vision and was in a restricted area where she wasn't supposed to be. All accounts have shown this.

Rachel Corrie, the tolerant one, burning a mock american flag. She hated Israelis and lied about them constantly as I showed above. She defended palestinians who supported Hamas. She was one of many goofy neo-hippies.



And you have no business calling Israel the occupiers, you refuse to acknowledge that arabs have occupied everywhere from spain to modern day iraq throughout the centuries. Berbers would laugh at your hypocritical occupier comments, as would the assyrians and kurds. Morocco is a berber country occupied by arabs. Fix your own problems, but you won't. You are obsessed with hating Israel. See where that gets you in the future. You will never get rid of Israel, sorry. And I wonder what the Israeli druze in the IDF would say about rachel corries lies and hatred for their country.

 

How do you then account for the ones that don't ? Would these be the falsified accounts of invading Palestinian terrorists who sent their suicide houses to ram glorious neoZionist bulldozers ?