Fossil Fuel industry trying to shut down electric vehicles

Discussion in 'Environment & Conservation' started by Kode, Mar 12, 2017.

  1. iamanonman

    iamanonman Well-Known Member

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    My perturbation P is intended to have units of entropy (Q/T) already. It is not meant to be a source or sink of entropy. It's meant to be a manipulator that controls and throttles the entropy (or heat flux) of a body.

    We are not talking about heat flowing from a colder body to a warmer body here. The Earth is warmer than Space (Te > Tv). What I'm saying is that the flow of heat Te -> Tv has decreased. Since Space is expanding it is also cooling. And since the flow of heat from Earth to Space has been impeded it follows that Space is cooling at a faster rate now. That's what I mean when I say "at the expense of Space getting colder". I didn't mean to imply that Space wasn't already getting colder. I meant that Space is getting colder at a faster rate. And since the WMAP satellite measured Space (Tv) at ~2.7249K it can definitely get colder.

    I do see the same thing. That graphic is meant as a trivial introduction to Earth's energy budget under the assumption that incoming and outgoing radiation are in equilibrium. But, we don't think the Earth is actually in equilibrium right now. If you poke around that website you'll see talk of the current imbalance. Now, this is the first time I've been to that site so I can't really vouch for it's credibility, but at a quick glace I can see they do reference peer reviewed academic literature and estimate the current imbalance at 0.5 W/m2 which is inline with the current scientific consensus so that leads me to believe it (or least parts of it) may be a credible. Now, you might think 0.5 W/m2 is nothing to get bent out of shape over. But, consider this. We think that imbalance is actually increasing. And, 0.5 W is 12 Wh per day per square meter. That is a staggering amount of energy that is being accumulated right now and the pace of accumulation may be increasing.
     
  2. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That's funny. You admit that you don't read much and mostly post from the top of your head and refer to me as a troll ?? Again I have a Masters Degree in Mechanical Engineering - Thermal Systems and a Bachelors Degree in Chemical Engineering. Try drawing a control volume around the earth and then do an energy balance based on the first law of thermodynamics. Quite unbelievable.
     
  3. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Do some reading on radiative heat transfer. The hot sun radiates energy to the much cooler earth. But the much cooler earth also radiates energy to the much hotter sun (and the rest of space including stars much hotter than our sun). And no laws of thermodynamics have been violated. Heat transfer from the sun to the earth and from the earth to space (including the sun) is not accomplished via conduction.

    http://people.atmos.ucla.edu/liou/Lecture/Lecture_2.pdf
     
  4. _Inquisitor_

    _Inquisitor_ Well-Known Member

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    Masters Degree in Mechanical Engineering - Thermal Systems and a Bachelors Degree in Chemical Engineering prevent nobody from trolling. People reduce themselves to pure trolling when their beliefs, everything they devoted their life to, taught their children, shared with their friends and colleagues turns to be all waste.

    Trolling on forums is quite harmless, but when you turn on your children, friends and colleagues especially when they depend on you in one way or another it makes you a climate scientist.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017
  5. _Inquisitor_

    _Inquisitor_ Well-Known Member

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    You have to define your “manipulator’’, draw it in the given system and write an equation for it.

    You keep on avoiding it.

    I have to repeat – “manipulator’’ has to be either heat in/out or mechanical work.

    In order to warm up a body you have to add dQ=dU+dA. dS=dQ/dT

    Your P and now M and then nobody knows what X, Y or Z you will come up with have to be translated into the above.

    The increase/decrease of the flow of heat is a function of increase/decrease of the T difference.

    The warmer is the earth the more heat will flow out of it per hour,

    the colder is the Space the more heat will flow from the Earth per hour.

    These are basics of basics.

    It seems that even the leaders of AGW who are the authors of the picture understand it.

    They understand that “in” has to come to = “out”.

    You dismissed the 2nd in the form I quoted though it is all over Internet.

    You dismissed Kelvin though you measure T in Kelvins.

    You dismissed the link to experiments.

    Now you are dismissing 341=341.

    Who then is willing to go against all scientists of the world just to push his personal beliefs whatever they are, no matter for or against GW or a half for a half against?

    What all scientists of the world don’t understand is that in order to move a system from one steady state “in”=”out” to another steady state “in”=”out” one has to apply heat or mechanical work to it, as the 1st law requires.

    There is no other way around.

    What all scientists of the world don’t understand is that all systems in nature are open.

    You can charge a battery and accumulate heat in it in the charger – battery system.

    But as soon as you disconnect the charger the battery will start discharging and it will loose its charge in nature.

    As soon as you stop burning coal at the power plant the charger will stop charging the battery.

    You have to keep on shoveling coal. This is the main statement of Thermodynamics.

    God is not shoveling the coal into the system. This is the main assumption all Thermodynamics is built on.

    The Sun and the Earth and all stars and planets will discharge.

    You can accumulate heat by CO2 during the day, but it will start discharging during the night.

    As one cannot consider only battery-charger system, one cannot consider only day time CO2 accumulating heat system.

    That’s why the picture drawn by the leading scientists is illiterate.

    There is an equation of heat exchange between two bodies by radiation.

    In the equation the colder is the body the more heat will flow to it (function of T in the 4th power)

    There is an equation of heat transfer from a body to our Space by radiation.

    In the equation the hotter is the body the more heat will flow out of it (function of T in the 4th power).

    In the both equations heat flows from a hotter body to a colder body.

    These equations as all other equations in Thermodynamics are not logical conclusions based on empirical evidence, they are not mathematical models, but they all results of direct measurements.

    You are more than welcome to use these simple equations and show me where I go wrong.

    It is not the matter of opinion, description or understanding, but it is the matter of the equations.

    If you say something you have to say it in equations or keep equations in mind.

    It is true for all Thermodynamics.

    There is no other way around in Thermodynamics, the discipline about warming.

    I see none in your mind when you say X,Y,Z or P or M.

    But yet, all scientists may be right and I may be wrong.

    In order to prove me that they are right scientists have to build a machine based on the CO2 effect claimed by them.

    There is no other way around in Thermodynamics, the discipline about warming.

    I gave you a link to machines built and proved that there was no such effect.

    You have ignored the link as you keep on ignoring anything which may contradict to your personal beliefs.

    You have accumulated these beliefs during your life time separating right from wrong.

    You came here to tell the world what you have accumulated.

    As the poet said, - It is not important to be born, it is important to be heard.

    I’ve heard it all.

    You are discharged.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017
  6. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It's clear who the troll is. ^^
     
  7. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Here's an idea. Actually purchase a couple of thermodynamics text books and read them instead of playing the fool.
     
  8. BleedingHeadKen

    BleedingHeadKen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not forcing strangers to subsidize the purchase of vehicles by relatively well-off middle class individuals is an attempt to kill off the industry.
     
  9. _Inquisitor_

    _Inquisitor_ Well-Known Member

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    And how that would stop you trolling or lift you up out of misery?
     
  10. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Ouch, more hurtful words. Your actual time spent learning about thermodynamics would greatly benefit you. I'm looking out for your welfare.
     
  11. mamooth

    mamooth Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And that's why most hardcore deniers will troll until the day they die. They're just too emotionally invested in denialism. It's their life. Not solely the denialism, but their herd identity in the right-wing-fringe poltical cult. Denialism isn't the actual cult. Right-wing extremism is the cult. Denialism is just one of the many irrational beliefs that the cult demands of all its acolytes. If they fail to mouth it, they get banished from the cult, and the thought of that terrifies them, being how their entire sense of self-worth is based on their cult identity.

    The other side, the rational people, are only invested in the truth, so we'll go wherever the truth leads us. It's very liberating, not having a political party commanding us what to believe. I pity the deniers, in that they're forbidden by their political cult to think as free men.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2017
  12. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That's delusional and deranged. ^^ Most likely driven by Trump Derangement Syndrome.
     
  13. _Inquisitor_

    _Inquisitor_ Well-Known Member

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    I have to completely disagree with your diagnosis, colleague, again.

    This patient exhibited the symptoms noted by you long before the word Trump started blowing some people's mind.

    Please look at his records.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2017
  14. _Inquisitor_

    _Inquisitor_ Well-Known Member

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    .
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2017
  15. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

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    Has there been any studies regarding the global stock (for want of a better word) of Lithium? For example, Lithium batteries in Teslas (and in emerging home batteries) contain roughly 1,200-2,000 pounds of traditional, recyclable materials AND lithium that cannot be easily recycled. At current estimates these batteries will be coming into the waste-recycling systems in volume in roughly 7-12 years time. According to Tesla....
    https://www.tesla.com/blog/teslas-closed-loop-battery-recycling-program
    The Lithium is basically burnt and added to concrete not recycled. The demand for not only car batteries but also household and industrial batteries (which will contain huge quantities of Lithium) is set to rocket over the next years - so is there enough of the stuff and will it's extraction have any environmental impact?
     
  16. mamooth

    mamooth Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The cult also instructs the cult snowflakes to scream "Trump Derangement Syndrome!" any time their religious beliefs are challenged. That way, they can shield their delicate minds from exposure to impure thoughts based on liberal concepts like facts and data. You see it happen over and over on every internet forum.
     
  17. mamooth

    mamooth Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    https://www.greentechmedia.com/arti...Myths-And-Realities-Part-1-The-Battery-Crisis
    ---
    When you look at the details, it turns out that the only thing worth losing any sleep over is lithium. Here I was slightly concerned, as it's one material that's not already used in huge quantities. A USGS estimate puts lithium reserves at 10 million tons. That'd be a bit close for comfort! That was back in the 1970s, though -- a more recent study by Evans put the figure at 30 million tons. That's a bit better, but still tight (as you see above, 1.5 billion cars). But now, SQM estimates reserves may exceed 60 million tons! The evolution is outlined in this report, and the reason is clear. With USGS reserves already at 10 million tons, and annual demand currently only around 0.034 million tons, we have enough known reserves for 300 years at current extraction rates.

    It's not that there's a shortage, it's that there's so much that until the last few years, no one has bothered to look for more. In fact, lithium exists at similar concentration in the earth's crust to lead and nickel. The question is only one of economic extraction and technology, and with current lithium prices only accounting for around 2 percent of the cost of a LiFePO4 battery in terms of $/kWh, that's not something we need to worry about anytime soon.
    ---
     
    The Scotsman likes this.
  18. yiostheoy

    yiostheoy Well-Known Member

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    Boy oh boy !!

    Did you ever misread that article !!

    They are just shutting down tax credit subsidies.

    That's all.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2017
  19. yiostheoy

    yiostheoy Well-Known Member

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    Why don't you guys/gals all have avatars to go with your monikers ???

    What is so hard about choosing an avatar ???

    Is it rocket science ???
     
  20. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And that ^^ is the talking points explanation of those who correctly identify Trump Derangement Syndrome.
     

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